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  #61  
Old 09.01.2011, 10:53
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

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I was just putting words in his mouth like he did.
Nil, it looks like I'm going to have to simplify this for you.

You said:

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You give too much credit on the people's ability to deal with what ever the informations they get to use it with intelligence.
Are you or are you not saying that people are too stupid to analyze a message appropriately, and therefore someone else (in this case Palin's team) needs to do it in advance for them?

I put no words in your mouth; rather, I made an analogy. Now, let's analyze what we know about the shooter.

Quote:
An old schoolmate of Mr Loughner told the Associated Press news agency he was a cannabis-smoking loner.

Police are poring over a series of rambling messages posted on the YouTube website believed to be the work of the suspect.

One message, written in white text over a black background, talks of inventing a new US currency.

Another suggests that the government practises "mind control and brainwash" by "controlling grammar".
Taken from the BBC profile of the shooter.

Does anyone know any more than that? I don't. I don't see the slightest reference to Palin's campaign message, do you? So any blame being placed on Palin would appear to be, as mentioned earlier by one of the more rational posters, political opportunism; taking advantage of a deranged boy's horrible act for political gain.

Maybe he was motivated by Palin's message, maybe he just had a crush on her and wanted to impress her. Hell if I know. But if I tell the public that I'm targeting small pharma companies for acquisition, drawing little targeting crosshairs over various corporate logos, and then someone goes out and shoots one of the CEOs, am I to blame? That kind of "logic" seems anything but to me.
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Old 09.01.2011, 10:54
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Re: Gabrielle Gifford, AZ politician, has just been killed.

From the fatal shooting of six people--including a nine-year-old girl--to this picture. Congratulations on plumbing the depths. How about trying common decency sometime? I've singled you out but about a good majority of posters are guilty of turning this thread into a train wreck.

It's probably nigh impossible by now, but I would much appreciate if the moderators would split off the political bile on this thread, which is supposed to be devoted to the point-blank shooting of a congresswoman.

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I think she should try to get a role in "Sex and the City"! Phew!!
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Old 09.01.2011, 11:06
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Re: Gabrielle Gifford, AZ politician, has just been killed.

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From the fatal shooting of six people--including a nine-year-old girl--to this picture. Congratulations on plumbing the depths. How about trying common decency sometime? I've singled you out but about a good majority of posters are guilty of turning this thread into a train wreck.

It's probably nigh impossible by now, but I would much appreciate if the moderators would split off the political bile on this thread, which is supposed to be devoted to the point-blank shooting of a congresswoman.
The shooting was politically motivated. Giffords' was targetted because she was a politician. Yes, the shooter is probably mentally instable and will be charged and tried appropriately. He will have to pay for his actions. What we don't know is how much the shooter was affected by the political "gun / shoot / reload" atmosphere that Sarah Palin and her supporters flaunt so publicly. This is the grey area that needs to be discussed and reviewed.

Last edited by olygirl; 09.01.2011 at 11:08. Reason: grammar
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  #64  
Old 09.01.2011, 11:34
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

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Nil, it looks like I'm going to have to simplify this for you.

You said:



Are you or are you not saying that people are too stupid to analyze a message appropriately, and therefore someone else (in this case Palin's team) needs to do it in advance for them?

I put no words in your mouth; rather, I made an analogy. Now, let's analyze what we know about the shooter.



Taken from the BBC profile of the shooter.

Does anyone know any more than that? I don't. I don't see the slightest reference to Palin's campaign message, do you? So any blame being placed on Palin would appear to be, as mentioned earlier by one of the more rational posters, political opportunism; taking advantage of a deranged boy's horrible act for political gain.

Maybe he was motivated by Palin's message, maybe he just had a crush on her and wanted to impress her. Hell if I know. But if I tell the public that I'm targeting small pharma companies for acquisition, drawing little targeting crosshairs over various corporate logos, and then someone goes out and shoots one of the CEOs, am I to blame? That kind of "logic" seems anything but to me.
You have to remember that we are relating to America here...Americans praise public figures, their celebrities etc... The guy that killed John Lennon (forgot his name) did it to impress the actress Jodi Foster. Americans are always hyped, being famous is a past time i.e. reality T.V. is rampant in the USA. People emulate these individuals who are really not talented per se, they are just on TV. You are not in the USA and don't realize how consistently Sarah Palin is running her mouth. She is making an impression on the "least intelligent" of the bunch, which in turn do the most stupid things.

People use advertising because it has an effect on people. She is good at hounding the public and really believes in her own publicity. Americans love ther rights, love their guns, love their...what ever. So yes its a "good, excellent" possibility that even though Sarah Palin didn't pull the trigger, she is a loud mouth instigator. If they didn't think so they wouldn't pull the ads that she had. If you don't believe it how about coming out of your little "cubby hole" in Basel and step into the Wild, Wild, West USA.
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  #65  
Old 09.01.2011, 11:40
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

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If you don't believe it how about coming out of your little "cubby hole" in Basel and step into the Wild, Wild, West USA.
Was that directed at me?

First, I live in Zürich.

Second, I *am* American, and have rather more experience with the culture than you do, having been a Midwestern boy for almost 30 years before I moved out here.

Third, Palin running her mouth is no different than any other politician we've had in the last 50 years. Believe me, we've had some doozies.

Fourth, as already pointed out, pulling those ads was the only possible reaction in the American media/political environment.

Ok, I've participated in the derailment of this thread enough. I'll have a look tomorrow and see if it's been split off into a separate thread and, if so, try to jump back in then.
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Old 09.01.2011, 11:50
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

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Was that directed at me?

First, I live in Zürich.

Second, I *am* American, and have rather more experience with the culture than you do, having been a Midwestern boy for almost 30 years before I moved out here.

Third, Palin running her mouth is no different than any other politician we've had in the last 50 years. Believe me, we've had some doozies.

Fourth, as already pointed out, pulling those ads was the only possible reaction in the American media/political environment.

Ok, I've participated in the derailment of this thread enough. I'll have a look tomorrow and see if it's been split off into a separate thread and, if so, try to jump back in then.
Yeah but you aren't in America NOW! and you should know better, if you are American you should be very well aware of American culture and the easy influence public figures and celebrities have on a lot of the American public...so come out of your little cubby hole in Zurich then...Sarah Palin has a disingenous "big mouth" and whether you like it or not she is having an impact on the "less intelligent" who feel defeated. Hopefully this incident will help to cool her heels....
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Old 09.01.2011, 12:32
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

1. I hope people don't use this to compound the image of the Tea Party as a buch of lunatics, whether the guy was doing this for political reasons or not. A third of Tea Party affiliates won their seats, which shows that a lot of normal people buy into the bullshit they espouse. The reasons for this should be addressed without dismissing them all as mentalists.

2. Can someone explain what is wrong with basic psychiatric exams for gun ownership?
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Old 09.01.2011, 12:36
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

I am probably giving too much information, but I interviewed Gabby Giffords a few years ago, when she was originally going for Jim Kolbe's congressional seat. She was well-versed in the issues, and seemed like a nice person. My colleagues there use the word gracious to describe her--she would always take a moment to speak with reporters, regardless of whether the news was good or bad that day. That year she won--2006--the race was pretty vitriolic. The republicans in Tucson tried to make it a one issue campaign--immigration.

Arizona is a very small world. Most people who stay a few years get to know the other folks who have been there a few years. It is a transient state so familiar faces are even more recognizable. Petty politics aside, this is just terrible. Apparently the federal judge who died had just come from mass, and wanted to stop by Giffords' event to "say hi."

Just very sad.
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Old 09.01.2011, 12:57
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

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Nil, it looks like I'm going to have to simplify this for you.

You said:



Are you or are you not saying that people are too stupid to analyze a message appropriately, and therefore someone else (in this case Palin's team) needs to do it in advance for them?

I put no words in your mouth; rather, I made an analogy. Now, let's analyze what we know about the shooter.



Taken from the BBC profile of the shooter.

Does anyone know any more than that? I don't. I don't see the slightest reference to Palin's campaign message, do you? So any blame being placed on Palin would appear to be, as mentioned earlier by one of the more rational posters, political opportunism; taking advantage of a deranged boy's horrible act for political gain.

Maybe he was motivated by Palin's message, maybe he just had a crush on her and wanted to impress her. Hell if I know. But if I tell the public that I'm targeting small pharma companies for acquisition, drawing little targeting crosshairs over various corporate logos, and then someone goes out and shoots one of the CEOs, am I to blame? That kind of "logic" seems anything but to me.
No, I said people, not ALL people. I could have said some people. We will see with time what was the guy's motive. What I see now, is that the Palin's team took all the Lists down from the internet. Why? They got somewhere the idea that it wasn't appropriated? If it has nothing to do with this sad story, why take it off?

I'll put my guess on that too many people made a (obvious) connection. That too many people looked at it and believed that it was just a gas tank for some dangerous minds.

I don't see the problem to talk about this subject on this thread. I think the connection is absolutely legitimate. We are talking about a politician who got shot and connections between her and the extremists politicians.

What I don't approuve if the Bozo who keep posting some pictures of Palin's sosie with useless comments just to troll the thread.
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Old 09.01.2011, 16:37
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

Why is everybody ignoring the fact that There was a fundraiser (In June and then November?) by Jessie Kelly to use a semi-automatic to help take out Giffords?.

At that time Pelosi (for whom Gifford's did not vote) stated that the cliffhanger election between Gifford and Kelly could well decided the balance of Congress, that's why it was on the Palin hit list. Look at the t-Shirt of this Kelly supporter tweeted by Kelly to other polticians and supporters to prove that this fundraiser was a great success Fundraiser to fire semi-automatics to get Gifford out of office!

Just look at this T.Shirt!

http://maddowblog.msnbc.msn.com/_new...wn?pc=25&sp=25

Now, Corbet, you may say that this is just all empty rhetoric -some nut who acted alone. I would like to remind you of an event that I posted earlier on this forum. I went to meet my son all dressed up high heels etc for lunch. At the time I had an extra 45 minutes in between appointments. it was a nice day so decided to go to the park to stand with other Obama supporters (I don't belong to any group- I had no posters or anything)

The tea party was there, so I passed the time of day in pleasant chit-chat about the weather, while constantly checking my phone, giving change to people for parking meters etc. I just assumed that they were a mixture of different political parties (yes we have a mixture in the US)

Then the event started. I realized that I was a lone Obama supporter in the middle of a sea of tea party-ers. So, to everyone's surprise, alone, I started shouting "Yes we can' I have a loud voice and could be heard by those on the stage. I got heckled but continued.

Then 3 burly men wearing NRA ( natonal rifle assocaition/gun lobby) made a B-Line towards me. They looked menacing, I smiled and continued, they then asked my name and said that they now had me on file as they took photos with a cell-phone. As they got more iirate, 'Oh say can't you see...' struck up. I put my hand on my heart and joined in, they backed off. I suppose it would looked stupid to take down a woman in high heels and handbag singing patriotically. Then I left for my lunch date.

When I got home I turned on the news, it looked to me exactly like the same man that took my photo. He was being interviewed- he was the Sheriff of one of the local counties, stating that as a citizen he felt it his duty to attend the rally and show his support along with other colleagues. I am sure that he must be have been armed I guess I should have looked at the 3 NRA caps and backed off. I wrote to the news chaneel to let them know.



So what are you saying Corbet?- that all these people- sheriffs, those running for office etc. and holding 'shoot to remove a congress woman fundraisers' are lone nutjobs whose empty rhetoric is just the way they express themselves? This was a political assassination- all congressmen have been advised to re-think public engagements So what's you view on Sharon Angle- just one more nut?

Quote:

Sharron Angle, the Tea Party candidate turned Republican primary winner in Nevada, has taken heat for a number of extreme affiliations and policy positions. One of the more outlandish was a statement she made during a radio interview last January in which she floated the idea that the public would bring down an out-of-control Congress with "Second Amendment remedies."
Angle: I feel that the Second Amendment is the right to keep and bear arms for our citizenry. This not for someone who's in the military. This not for law enforcement. This is for us. And in fact when you read that Constitution and the founding fathers, they intended this to stop tyranny. This is for us when our government becomes tyrannical...
Manders: If we needed it at any time in history, it might be right now.
Angle: Well it's to defend ourselves. And you know, I'm hoping that we're not getting to Second Amendment remedies. I hope the vote will be the cure for the Harry Reid problems.
Manders cut to break after the statement. So there was no expansion on Angle's proclamation. Prior to that sound bite, however, Angle hinted that she was likely carrying a concealed .44 magnum model 29 during the interview.
.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_614003.html
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Old 09.01.2011, 17:05
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

After all it isn't the first time that Republican politicians have been accused of using death threats:

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Mike Huckabee, who said that anything less than execution for Assange would be too kind of a penalty; and Sarah Palin, who said Assange is no different than Al Qaeda or the Taliban. Assange’s response:


"Oh, it's just another idiot trying to make a name for himself. But it's a -- it's a serious business. I mean if we are to have a civil society, you cannot have senior people making calls on national TV to go around the judiciary and illegally murder people. That is incitement to commit murder. That is an offense. Does the United States obey the rule of law? Because Europeans are starting to wonder whether it is still obeying the rule of law. And it needs to be very careful. Is it going to descend into an anarchy where those great Bill of Rights traditions about due process are just thrown to the wind whenever some shock jock politician thinks that they can use it to make a name for themselves? Or do we take things according to laws expressly made by the people and their representatives? That is the way things should be done. And when people call for illegal, deliberate assassination and kidnapping of others, they should be held to account. They should be charged for incitement to commit murder."
I mean it wasn't as if they weren't warned- Gifford warned them herself that such rhetoric has consequences


Corbet, let congresswoman Gifford simplify this for you:


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  #72  
Old 09.01.2011, 17:09
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

Do the followers of this thread believe that posting about the right of carrying guns in AZ is not related to what just happened and the topic being discussed ? Because that is what the moderator think who deleted my post. ALthough he let through developments regarding the NRA. Of course, if it is a general feeling, I will just attempt to start another thread .
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Old 09.01.2011, 17:19
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

I do think that we need to rethink rhetoric in the US. Far too many people seem to take symbolism and metaphor too literally. Angry people in uncertain times can be far too easily aroused.

Do I blame Palin? Not directly. But I do think that her platform, images and rhetoric feed the anger. I think that politicians and media need to be aware of the impact of their word and images, even on a small segment of the population. For example, when is it ever appropriate to portray a political race as an opportunity to harm an opposing candidate, as Jesse Kelly did.

It seems that not everyone has a high enough threshold for distinguising metaphor from appropriate action and dangerous rhetoric feeds into this.

Sure, this is "just another loner", but how many of these people are out there with semi automatic rifles?

It's really sad for all those dead and injured, but also for US citizens in general if this means they start to loose access to more local politicians. And, will we be left with nutters like Sharon Angle and Jesse kelly.
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Old 09.01.2011, 19:58
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

Keith Olbermann commented on the current rhetoric among politicians and newsmen and is calling out for a change. Quite a brilliant speech.


Last edited by olygirl; 09.01.2011 at 20:19. Reason: spelling
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Old 09.01.2011, 20:03
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

To be fair, the Democratics used a target map during the Bush days.
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Old 09.01.2011, 20:07
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, AZ politician, has just been killed

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So, just to take all subtlety out of this thread, are you (any of you) proposing that because Sarah Palin used crosshairs to indicate which political races she wanted to win (i.e. "target"), she has therefore incited this nut to violence?

I just want to be clear on this before I decide whether to laugh or.... well, laugh.
i was thinking the same. the poster on its own seems harmless enough. but there seems to be other context around it e.g. the quote given above: "Get on Target for Victory in November. Help remove Gabrielle Giffords from office. Shoot a fully automatic M16 with Jesse Kelly."

Incitement to violence?
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Old 09.01.2011, 20:15
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

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To be fair, the Democratics used a target map during the Bush days.
Surely not!



Oh yes... so they did!

Anyway American domestic politics = none of my bleedin' business, so that's me out of this thread.
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Old 09.01.2011, 20:29
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

Doesn't anybody else find it strange for her to have subscribed to the shooter's channel on YouTube ?

http://www.youtube.com/user/giffords2

Bottom left - http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10
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Old 09.01.2011, 20:31
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

I used to hate guns, but then some avid hunters from the midwest cooked my husband a big pot of venison stew to keep him going while he was working round the clock. A few days after he left he was told that his project was their last, they were all being made redundant, there isn't much work where they are, but the hunting will help keep them and their families fed.

I think that there is a place for guns- but not in politics, right or left.
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Old 09.01.2011, 21:08
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

They have found the other person (initially suspected), spoken to him and are convinced there is no connection between him and the shooter.
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