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  #161  
Old 11.01.2011, 11:28
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Re: Gabrielle Gifford, AZ politician, has just been killed.

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Politics in the US are taking a violent turn...Let's hope for the best
Not really. There are 300 million people in America, over 42X the Swiss population with a much larger per capita gun rate.

It is easy, and likely should be expected, that once in a while, in one of the 50 states, with a total land area as big as Continental Europe, that some freak will go nuts and shoot some low ranking politician.

I mean...think about it...is it really so unlikely? To me, it is a good thing it does not happen more often.
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  #162  
Old 11.01.2011, 11:33
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Re: Gabrielle Gifford, AZ politician, has just been killed.

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Reuters no longer reports that shes dead...instead, she's in surgery in a critical condition...
I have no idea how Palin became a so-called politician...she has the charisma of a failed mom and the appearance of a mean, and a conniving evil neighbour -the one we all watch out from.
As stupid as Palin is, she does not make anyone shoot anyone else or even suggest it. People have personal responsibility.

If Sarah Palin came to my house and told me directly that I should go outside and shoot someone all day long, I would not do it. In America I also own a gun, a .32 cal snub-nose revolver. I grew up with a lot of guns in my rural state of Ohio. When I was a kid, in my neighborhood, there were likely multiple guns in almost every house. Back then (in the early 1980's) no one locked their guns away. Not once have I ever heard in my town (since the 1980's) has a child took a gun and shot another child or themselves. My grandfather, I know, had two loaded shotguns in the living room of his home. I could have easily got one anytime I wanted. I never touched them. Manly because he took me hunting and showed me how to shoot one. I didn't kill anything but the act of shooting it knocked me to the ground. He did shoot a deer. I saw what that looked like. I think I started crying, and I never thought to use that weapon again.

The problem is American society in general, and the amount of mentally ill people we have (and criminals) with access to guns that should be in a mental hospital or in jail.
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  #163  
Old 11.01.2011, 11:46
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Re: Gabrielle Gifford, AZ politician, has just been killed.

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As stupid as Palin is, she does not make anyone shoot anyone else or even suggest it. People have personal responsibility.
I don't think most people are accusing Palin of being directly responsible for the shooting.

On the other hand, it does very little good to appeal to a deranged individual's sense of personal responsibility.

The argument here is that right-wing populist rhetoric in the states has reached such a pitch that it will encourage extreme action and in outlying cases send disturbed individuals in a certain direction.

It's not just the shooting . . . the offices of Democratic members of congress have been vandalised.

And remember that only recently senior Republicans were calling for Julian Assange to be shot.

http://www.peopleokwithmurderingassange.com

There is a level of irrationality among some of the anti-government activists that borders on the deranged:

http://m.boingboing.net/2011/01/10/t...overnment.html

Those who argue that political rhetoric has no effect should consider why politicians bother with it.
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  #164  
Old 11.01.2011, 11:54
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

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By the way, there are now suspicions that the shooter had ties to some sort of white supremacist group, which is a much more likely motivator to this kind of act than the Tea Party.
The Tea Party itself has links to racist groups.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/oc...ague-tea-party
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  #165  
Old 11.01.2011, 12:14
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

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This incident is like all Mr Obama's birthdays and Christmases rolled into one. I bet he's clapping his hands with glee at it all.
I think this is incorrect too.

The Democrats want Palin to get the GOP nomination as she would be an easy opponent beat. The last thing they want is a centrist Republican gaining prominence.
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  #166  
Old 11.01.2011, 12:16
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Re: Gabrielle Gifford, AZ politician, has just been killed.

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The problem is American society in general, and the amount of mentally ill people we have (and criminals) with access to guns that should be in a mental hospital or in jail.
So are you suggesting that in the U.S., it's better to lock the people away rather than the guns?
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  #167  
Old 11.01.2011, 12:18
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Re: Gabrielle Gifford, AZ politician, has just been killed.

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As stupid as Palin is, she does not make anyone shoot anyone else or even suggest it. People have personal responsibility.
Ok. So what does she do? She continuously uses "gun words" when she is talking about her political enemies - crosshairs, calling them target, asking supporters to "reload"... yes, it is all complete bullshit and any person in his right mind would only shake his head. But the shooter was very likely not in his right mind. To him, this type of populism might very well sound like a suggestion.
I am not saying that you always need to worry how a nutter could misunderstand each and every word of your speeches. But: Honestly looking at it is Palins "style" more agressive and so figurative that one could have foreseen it. Just as you said: The country is large, has many guns and enough people that there must be enough nutters as well. So: Do you really need to start the fire as a politician? You can think about her agenda what you want, but there are for sure enough other ways to express your goals than crosshairs and gun-related analogies.

In my eyes is she not directly responsible for it, but clearly more than for example the gun availability... she is a populist using some very bad style, this will never be without consequences.
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  #168  
Old 11.01.2011, 12:23
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Re: Gabrielle Gifford, AZ politician, has just been killed.

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. But: Honestly looking at it is Palins "style" more agressive and so figurative that one could have foreseen it.
And many did predict it, including Giffords herself.
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  #169  
Old 11.01.2011, 12:24
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

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The Tea Party itself has links to racist groups.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/oc...ague-tea-party
I'm not sure you could call the EDL "racist" exactly. Vehemently anti-Islamic yes, but not racist. I do believe some of the leading members are British-Asian
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  #170  
Old 11.01.2011, 12:30
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

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I'm not sure you could call the EDL "racist" exactly. Vehemently anti-Islamic yes, but not racist. I do believe some of the leading members are British-Asian
It's all part of the same nonsense: Intolerance and bigotry. I'd say hateful Islamophobia is equivalent to racism.
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  #171  
Old 11.01.2011, 12:32
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

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Vehemently anti-Islamic yes, but not racist. I do believe some of the leading members are British-Asian
So you are saying that only whites can be racist ?
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  #172  
Old 11.01.2011, 12:37
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

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So you are saying that only whites can be racist ?
Not at all, but I think there is a better term than "racism" for what the EDL promote.
Nit-picking maybe, but they're not exactly gung-ho, swastika-bearing militant white supremacists.
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  #173  
Old 11.01.2011, 12:38
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

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So you are saying that only whites can be racist ?
No. He's saying that Islamophobia is not a form of racism, because it targets a religious group rather than an ethnic group.

It's fairly bogus . . . In most of the areas where the EDL is active, Muslims are identified with a certain ethnic group: Normally Pakistani.
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  #174  
Old 11.01.2011, 13:11
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

Are 'Jews' and ethnic, racial or religious group?
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Old 11.01.2011, 13:14
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

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Are 'Jews' and ethnic, racial or religious group?
Religious, why do you ask?
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  #176  
Old 11.01.2011, 13:34
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

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No. He's saying that Islamophobia is not a form of racism, because it targets a religious group rather than an ethnic group.

It's fairly bogus . . . In most of the areas where the EDL is active, Muslims are identified with a certain ethnic group: Normally Pakistani.

Because of this. BTW I know many many Jews who are not religious at all.
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  #177  
Old 11.01.2011, 13:45
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

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  #178  
Old 11.01.2011, 13:47
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

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Religious, why do you ask?
Actually, I think it's both, isn't it? I'm pretty sure there's a Jewish ethnicity as well as the Jewish religon.
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  #179  
Old 11.01.2011, 13:49
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

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Not at all, but I think there is a better term than "racism" for what the EDL promote.
Nit-picking maybe, but they're not exactly gung-ho, swastika-bearing militant white supremacists.
I am not saying that the EDL are racist. I just stumbled across your reference to some of its members being British-Asian. You made the connection to racism (or, rather, lack therof) because of their ethnic background.
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  #180  
Old 11.01.2011, 14:45
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Re: Gabrielle Giffords, US politician, shot in the head

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I am not saying that the EDL are racist. I just stumbled across your reference to some of its members being British-Asian. You made the connection to racism (or, rather, lack therof) because of their ethnic background.
Fair enough. The reason I mention British-Asian, is that they are the same ethnicity as most of the people the EDL are protesting against ie Southern Asian. They do not, however, share the same religion.
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