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  #161  
Old 12.01.2011, 15:31
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Re: How about a limit on your bonus?

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Short answer: no
Long answer... No Effing way.
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  #162  
Old 12.01.2011, 15:34
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Re: How about a limit on your bonus?

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its quite stunning the amount of people who have strong opinions about banks and bonuses, yet don't have the first clue about the banking industry. the daily mail / bbc's job has been done.
Even more stunning is the number of people who work in banks and don't have a clue ....
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  #163  
Old 12.01.2011, 15:34
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Re: How about a limit on your bonus?

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Still sticking to those debunked models?

http://bigthink.com/ideas/21578

So you disagree wiht Bob Diamond?

Barclays' chief executive Bob Diamond adamant bank’s model funds cheaper lending and is less risky
Bob Diamond, the chief executive of Barclays Bank, has parried claims that combining retail with investment banking threatens financial stability, saying the universal model not only enabled banks to lend for less, but was also less risky.


http://www.risk.net/risk-magazine/ne...versal-banking

of course is less risky, and the rewards are also less, so the gov's tax intake would also be less. its swings and roundabouts.

if you want a totally risk adverse life then be prepared for the huge tax rate increase that would be needed to pay for it.
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  #164  
Old 12.01.2011, 15:38
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Re: How about a limit on your bonus?

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again, 'we' didn't bail them out, see a few posts back, the gov provided guarantee's for which they where hansomly rewarded.
Actually BB, we did bail them out, the differences between cash and guarantees exist but if you understand -and I am sure you do- the concept of risk, you will agree that assuming the risk of someone else is a form of bail out.
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  #165  
Old 12.01.2011, 15:39
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Re: How about a limit on your bonus?

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I don't work for a bank, or in banking, saying that I have worked for several investment banks in the past but as a contractor so was never entitled to any kind of bonus.

as for "attempt to deflect criticism" LOL, I'm just stick of people spouting what they heard on tv or read in the papers as some kind of fact, we bailed them out, we gave them money, they should have failed etc etc etc

the world would be truly screwed, I mean totally and utterly f**ked if the banks had been 'allowed' to fail, hundredes of thousands (if not millions) of new people on the dole (and all the costs that entails), no one lending to anyone, huge house price crashes etc

retail banks play to a whole different set of rules to investment banks, sure some may share a name but they are run as totally seperate entities, and you can bet your arse your local branch manager at hsbc isn't getting any huge bonuses.
The first rule when dealing with customers- don't assume!

Just because we lose a load of investment banks doesn't mean the system crashes.You forget the simple law of economics, that it is not the bank that holds the purse strings- it is the people. Pople can get by without the established banking system economics will one way or another find its own route, but the banks cannot get by without people.

As to what is read in papers or TV that is exactly what investment bankers do, that is where they get their info from. All a financial newspaper needs to do is send a rumour and the investment banks scurry around in frenzied activity. Sometimes they even set the rumours off themselves!

Money really is very simple- why are you trying to pretend that it's difficult to understand?
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  #166  
Old 12.01.2011, 15:43
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Re: How about a limit on your bonus?

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Actually BB, we did bail them out, the differences between cash and guarantees exist but if you understand -and I am sure you do- the concept of risk, you will agree that assuming the risk of someone else is a form of bail out.
However you look at it the banks needed 'support' from the government. Without that support there was a high risk of banks losing confidence in each other and the risk of freefall.

Even if it is only a guarantee then I think it still counts as a bailout. Of course at the end of it all any money loaned by governments was paid back - with interest. Everybody won, but only the bankers got a bonus.
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  #167  
Old 12.01.2011, 15:46
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Re: How about a limit on your bonus?

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I don't work for a bank, or in banking, saying that I have worked for several investment banks in the past but as a contractor so was never entitled to any kind of bonus.

as for "attempt to deflect criticism" LOL, I'm just stick of people spouting what they heard on tv or read in the papers as some kind of fact, we bailed them out, we gave them money, they should have failed etc etc etc

the world would be truly screwed, I mean totally and utterly f**ked if the banks had been 'allowed' to fail, hundredes of thousands (if not millions) of new people on the dole (and all the costs that entails), no one lending to anyone, huge house price crashes etc

retail banks play to a whole different set of rules to investment banks, sure some may share a name but they are run as totally seperate entities, and you can bet your arse your local branch manager at hsbc isn't getting any huge bonuses.
sorry but you're still perpetuating platitudes.... the banks naturally want us to believe that "the world would be truly screwed, I mean totally and utterly f**ked if the banks had been 'allowed' to fail" as you so eloquently put it, but that is utter horsesh1t. Ask Iceland...
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  #168  
Old 12.01.2011, 15:50
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Re: How about a limit on your bonus?

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Actually BB, we did bail them out, the differences between cash and guarantees exist but if you understand -and I am sure you do- the concept of risk, you will agree that assuming the risk of someone else is a form of bail out.
Even Diamond is acknowledges that he is grateful for government help and the banks are sorry they behaved so badly.

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Diamond refused to acknowledge that Barclays had benefited indirectly from taxpayer aid given to rival lenders RBS and HBOS – now Lloyds – saying the bank "did not put the system at risk" and flagged that there was a difference between "a direct bailout" and central banks' provision of greater amounts of liquidity, which he was "grateful" for. He claimed bankers had been sufficiently "apologetic and remorseful".
Sometimes people are just better off knowing where to invest themselves rather than trusting those who pretend to understand a beast ( bull or bear) that they really don't and then they expect bonuses?

Anyway I'll leave you alone now- just remember- don't assume!
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  #169  
Old 12.01.2011, 15:57
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Re: How about a limit on your bonus?

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Just wanted to gauge opinion here with all the fuss about the size of the bonus given (earned?) to some Bankers.

How about we pass a law across the EU that restricts a bonus to a maximum of 10% of your annual salary? This is across all industries/job descriptions. What is the upside of this? What negative effects would it have?

You do a job and you get a basic salary, if you do it well then you can get a maximum bonus of 10%. Seems fair doesn't it, or am I missing something?
As someone whose annual bonus is greater than 10%, I am opposed!

My bonus was a recruiting incentive and something that enticed me to leave the stability of my 15 year career. That incentive was a recruiting tool for my employer. If those recruiting tools are limited or regulated, then companies lose their ability to recruit talented individuals like expats to come work for them.

The problem is... rather than be envious of what others have, why not go out there and get the same qualifications, skills, and abilities to become competitive enough to apply for those jobs that will lift a person up to that level?

I worked hard for what I have. Nobody "gave" me anything. I've been working since I was 14 years old. I put myself through university while working full time. I sought the career experiences to position me where I am today. It's taken a long time to get into this position. Pardon my resentment for people who feel entitled to what I have but don't want to do anything to get it.

...and that concludes my rant.
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  #170  
Old 12.01.2011, 16:02
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Re: How about a limit on your bonus?

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sorry but you're still perpetuating platitudes.... the banks naturally want us to believe that "the world would be truly screwed, I mean totally and utterly f**ked if the banks had been 'allowed' to fail" as you so eloquently put it, but that is utter horsesh1t. Ask Iceland...

how many people do banks directly and indirectly employ? how much corp tax, ni, income tax etc etc do the banks and employees pay? how much 'one off bonus' tax etc etc

Now factor in a great deal of uk companies run day to day on overdrafts and credit, all of a sudden the banks call the debts in, people stop getting paid, companies can't pay suppliers etc etc, and you have a domino effect

if people can't see the outcome then the media have really earn't there money.
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  #171  
Old 12.01.2011, 16:02
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Re: How about a limit on your bonus?

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As someone whose annual bonus is greater than 10%, I am opposed!

The problem is... rather than be envious of what others have, why not go out there and get the same qualifications, skills, and abilities to become competitive enough to apply for those jobs that will lift a person up to that level? .
I'm not sure everybody who opposes the bankers bonus is envious...or is it really down to that?
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  #172  
Old 12.01.2011, 16:06
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Re: How about a limit on your bonus?

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I'm not sure everybody who opposes the bankers bonus is envious...or is it really down to that?

sounds that way to me
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  #173  
Old 12.01.2011, 16:28
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Re: How about a limit on your bonus?

Ok, I will give it a last attempt, before everything is hoppied up here too much for me:
- It is completely irrelevant how much of a salary is "fixed" and how much is "bonus". One of the things I learned when I read all the news on the financial crisis the last years was that some people have contractually agreed "bonus" payments! So just forget the name or the concept of it being some kind of "present" for good work - it is simply part of the package.
- Not everybody who is against extremely high management salaries is a communist or jealous. It would be nice to once keep it a bit less emotional. My point is that most senior managers build networks - far over company borders into each others boardrooms and beyond. These networks can relatively freely decide on their salaries and very few board members have ever stood up and called a salary excessive - especially as long as they get very high payments for sitting in a board... These networks are not a "free market" so no, not the one who offers the best skills for the lowest salary becomes CEO. You become CEO and then you decide on your own salary (and your homies')...
- This is not a finance-problem, but the same in each and every industry. On a much smaller scale have I seen how a network of medium to higher managers who all knew each other from a time before they came to Switzerland gave each other positions and benefits that can hardly be explained with a market value of an employee. The reason why everyone bashes bankers is that the financial industry is aparently the most excessive.
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  #174  
Old 12.01.2011, 17:01
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Re: How about a limit on your bonus?

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Ok, I will give it a last attempt, before everything is hoppied up here too much for me:
- It is completely irrelevant how much of a salary is "fixed" and how much is "bonus". One of the things I learned when I read all the news on the financial crisis the last years was that some people have contractually agreed "bonus" payments! So just forget the name or the concept of it being some kind of "present" for good work - it is simply part of the package.
- Not everybody who is against extremely high management salaries is a communist or jealous. It would be nice to once keep it a bit less emotional. My point is that most senior managers build networks - far over company borders into each others boardrooms and beyond. These networks can relatively freely decide on their salaries and very few board members have ever stood up and called a salary excessive - especially as long as they get very high payments for sitting in a board... These networks are not a "free market" so no, not the one who offers the best skills for the lowest salary becomes CEO. You become CEO and then you decide on your own salary (and your homies')...
- This is not a finance-problem, but the same in each and every industry. On a much smaller scale have I seen how a network of medium to higher managers who all knew each other from a time before they came to Switzerland gave each other positions and benefits that can hardly be explained with a market value of an employee. The reason why everyone bashes bankers is that the financial industry is aparently the most excessive.
Ah yes, but the salaries must also be approved by the shareholders, must they not. So this means the shareholders are the dunces for buying the bullcr*p that management is feeding them?

In fact many small shareholders are concerned, but they cannot acheive much as the bulk of shares are no longer held by individuals but by funds and other such constructs that basically involve the people who own them signing their voting rights off to somebody else who is also in the bonus system. Sound a bit like a conspiracy?
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  #175  
Old 12.01.2011, 17:14
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Re: How about a limit on your bonus?

If someone builds their own system and network and other people buy into it, then unless they are breaking the law, defrauding or ripping people off, why should we penalize them? Surely we should reward them. I don't begrudge success, or entrepreneurship, that's how we advance. Whether they did it with their homies or alone or give themselves fat bonuses- it's their business and they have a right to protect it and run it how they see fit.

In any merger or acquisition you will find that the new company comes in and slowly replaces the employees with their own, along with their own management and corporate language. Like Lions they kill off the cubs of the lioness and impregnate her with their own. Switzerland is not immune to this. If you don't like it then you shouldn't have allowed the takeover.
Share holders can't vote to suit their pocket and then moan about what happened to the company.

Thank goodness for entrepreneurs, you can't penalize someone for getting ahead of the competition. If it's their money then it's up to them what they do with it. I just begrudge people who try to rip the system off at either end of the spectrum. Of course, the system itself need regulatory oversight, to make sure that it is up-to-date and does not allow unfair trading practice. We have to vote to make sure that competent honest people are in office to carry out the oversight. Finding honest politicians is really tricky.

Good managers are worth paying for, if you don't pay them what they are worth, they will go elsewhere-like the pied piper. It's the bozos that mess up the system going, from wrecking one department after another, because their buddies protect them or use underhand tactics, that I resent. I have witnessed a lot of that!

If you don't like the way the system is then use your vote to change it.

OK hoppy rant over.
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  #176  
Old 12.01.2011, 17:15
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Re: How about a limit on your bonus?

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These networks are not a "free market" so no, not the one who offers the best skills for the lowest salary becomes CEO. You become CEO and then you decide on your own salary (and your homies')...
why not?

also in the large companies there is:

- ultimately, shareholder power
- remuneration committee
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  #177  
Old 12.01.2011, 17:32
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Re: How about a limit on your bonus?

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Ah yes, but the salaries must also be approved by the shareholders, must they not. So this means the shareholders are the dunces for buying the bullcr*p that management is feeding them?

In fact many small shareholders are concerned, but they cannot acheive much as the bulk of shares are no longer held by individuals but by funds and other such constructs that basically involve the people who own them signing their voting rights off to somebody else who is also in the bonus system. Sound a bit like a conspiracy?
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why not?

also in the large companies there is:

- ultimately, shareholder power
- remuneration committee
Honestly guys, am I the only one following the news during the last Aktionärsversammlung of the UBS? If there ever was a board that deserved to not get "released" from legal obligations by the shareholders it was probably that one... Yes, some small shareholders can get angry, but when did a lot/enough small shareholders really join and kick out a CEO in a Swiss bank? Examples where the Aktionärsversammlung really controlled and stopped the management from doing anything significantly in Swiss banking? Anyone?

I cannot recall a single case.

Remuneration comittee??? At VW they simply paid them some hookers - that turned out to be illegal. So now they make sure that everyone in there is fed well enough to shut up and not bite the hand that feeds so well...
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  #178  
Old 12.01.2011, 19:17
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Re: How about a limit on your bonus?

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Honestly guys, am I the only one following the news during the last Aktionärsversammlung of the UBS? If there ever was a board that deserved to not get "released" from legal obligations by the shareholders it was probably that one... Yes, some small shareholders can get angry, but when did a lot/enough small shareholders really join and kick out a CEO in a Swiss bank? Examples where the Aktionärsversammlung really controlled and stopped the management from doing anything significantly in Swiss banking? Anyone?

I cannot recall a single case.

Remuneration comittee??? At VW they simply paid them some hookers - that turned out to be illegal. So now they make sure that everyone in there is fed well enough to shut up and not bite the hand that feeds so well...
I accompanied my husband to a business conference in Cannes- I think I was the only female partner, except for the mistresses, secretaries, can-can dancers sitting on their laps.. great food and drink all on company expense. Another person I know takes their customers to gentleman's high end clubs, Then another I know in the stock market/ wealth management- there's the private yachts, VIP lounge at clubs, hiring out casinos, restaurants- Aye- you know what I is talkin' about-so what's new?
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  #179  
Old 12.01.2011, 19:59
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Re: How about a limit on your bonus?

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- Not everybody who is against extremely high management salaries is a communist or jealous.
I would like rephrase this a little bit:
Everyone who is against extremely high management salaries is a socialist and/or envious.
I can subscribe to a statement like that.
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  #180  
Old 12.01.2011, 21:17
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Re: How about a limit on your bonus?

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Just because we lose a load of investment banks doesn't mean the system crashes.
I can only assume that’s because you don’t undrstand how the system worked in 2008.

Again, just so everybody understands how the system operates.
Banks make their money from carrying what’s called liquidity risk. They fund long term loans with short term borrowings. The availability of those short term funds is called liquidity.
Q: Who supplies a lot of that short term liquidity to the banks?
A: Pre 2008 - other banks.

If banks rely to a large extent on other banks for a source of liquidity, when the interbank market is perfectly liquid, the system is not at risk. However, when banks stop lending to each other, even healthy, sound banks cannot source enough funds to fund their obligations and so they become insolvent. This is called a liquidity crisis. Banks can weather a lot of storms but they can’t weather a liquidity strike.

One bank failing because of a liquidity crisis won’t bring the system down. Two banks facing a liquidity crisis won’t bring the system down. It's happened in the pas t and the system has hardly skipped beat. So what was different about the 2008 crisis? What was different was that the crisis was systemic and a systemic liquidity crisis does put the entire system at risk.

Why did the 2008 liquidity crisis become systemic? Because the crisis highlighted a lack of transparency across whole banking system. Banks couldn't tell how much other banks were exposed to the sub prime pyramid which led to a credit strike across the whole system because banks lost confidence in each other, called in their what loans they could and wouldn’t lend new money to other banks - even banks that were sound. So we entered a vicious cycle - all banks hoarding their own liquidity because they couldn’t get it from other banks.

That led to a liquidity crisis for the whole banking system - which is what brought the whole system to the brink.

When banks stop lending to each other, the only thing which can stop the system collapsing is a lender of last resort. In 2008 the only lenders of last resort with deep enough pockets to pump enough liquidity into the banking system were the central banks.

How bad could it have been if the central banks hadn’t bailed out the system? I have no idea. How many banks have to fail before you're left with a viable system? But I wouldn’t have gambled with it because it’s naive to think a failure of the banking system wouldn’t have led to a collapse of the economy. Don't forget, even post 2008 banks still have a lot of loans to each other they couldn't call in. If Spain's banks were to collapse what knock on effect do you think that would have on German banks?

Looking to the future, part of the answer is to force banks to be more transparent and hold bigger liquidity reserves.

Last edited by Nev; 12.01.2011 at 21:44.
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