Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #181  
Old 20.01.2011, 07:42
Nil's Avatar
Nil Nil is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Basel
Posts: 10,356
Groaned at 428 Times in 333 Posts
Thanked 16,045 Times in 6,322 Posts
Nil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

Quote:
View Post
Is that the same Mother Theresa who was beatified because someone claimed that a beam of light came form a picture of her hanging in her home and cured her of a cancerous tumor that her doctor stated she didn't have in the first place and that the tubercular cyst she did have was cured by a course of prescription medicine?

The one that described contraception as "a selfish act" and "anti-life"?

The one totally against any reform in the Catholic church?

The one who visited Haiti as a guest of the Duvaliers, and said that "the poor people so familiar with their head of state as they were with her. It was a beautiful lesson for me." ?

The one who told thousands of women who were victims of rape during the Bangladeshi Independence War that they should have the children anyway?

Or another (saintly) one?
I guess it is that one yes!

Hey I said if I have to chose beetween the both of them, I'll pick her. I didn't say that in all around the world, if I have to pick someone, I'll pick her.

She may had different point of view and way of life, it doesn't change the fact that she spend her whole life for others, not herself.

Reply With Quote
  #182  
Old 20.01.2011, 10:23
Gastro Gnome's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 3,553
Groaned at 49 Times in 35 Posts
Thanked 2,856 Times in 1,550 Posts
Gastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

Quote:
View Post
She may had different point of view and way of life, it doesn't change the fact that she spend her whole life for others, not herself.
Nah . . . she gave her life to 'God'.
Reply With Quote
  #183  
Old 20.01.2011, 10:42
Leni's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Sunny Solothurn
Posts: 942
Groaned at 8 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 765 Times in 406 Posts
Leni has a reputation beyond reputeLeni has a reputation beyond reputeLeni has a reputation beyond reputeLeni has a reputation beyond reputeLeni has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

Quote:
View Post
I guess it is that one yes!

Hey I said if I have to chose beetween the both of them, I'll pick her. I didn't say that in all around the world, if I have to pick someone, I'll pick her.

She may had different point of view and way of life, it doesn't change the fact that she spend her whole life for others, not herself.

Hmmm.....Mother Theresa........don't get me started please.
So hyped.

We'll be praising the saintly Diana next.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Leni for this useful post:
  #184  
Old 20.01.2011, 14:46
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Zurich
Posts: 168
Groaned at 36 Times in 19 Posts
Thanked 78 Times in 50 Posts
daboy is considered unworthydaboy is considered unworthydaboy is considered unworthydaboy is considered unworthy
Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

Quote:
I beg to differ. As a recent convert to Christianity, who still manages to pass under the radar for a lot of people IRL by being, well, kind of normal (like the overwhelming majority of religious people, although you'd never think it from some of the nonsense that is said about us), you wouldn't believe the sort of stuff I've heard said about people who believe in "that rubbish": not just criticisms of "that rubbish" itself, but criticisms of the people themselves for being so stupid, so pigheaded, so moronic, so undereducated, so gullible as to be taken in by any of it..
You do have a point that in most ways your kind of Christianity is rather benign, but, depending on one's definition of normal, it cannot be true that it's the case with "the overwhelming majority" of (at least) abrahamic religion adherents. For example, there are no rational arguments against homosexual marriage, yet it remains illegal in most US states based solely on religious belief. Roe v. Wade is susceptible to being overturned whenever there's a conservative SCOTUS majority, because god says it's wrong. When the belief manifests itself in bigotry, that's when it becomes a problem.

My point is that irrational belief itself isn't really the issue. Believing in Santa Claus, or the flying spaghetti monster, etc., is tolerable, or even your kind of presumably loose Christianity, but I doubt that the overwhelming majority is smart enough not to act on their beliefs in a way that interferes with the rest of the population. That's why it's just safer to not have these beliefs in the first place, as it eliminates the risk of them influencing politics and having unfortunate results for gays, jews, palestinians, the inadvertently pregnant (or their doctors), iraqis, pakistanis, indians, and most everyone.
Reply With Quote
  #185  
Old 20.01.2011, 15:32
MathNut's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Kt. Glarus
Posts: 4,415
Groaned at 34 Times in 32 Posts
Thanked 10,952 Times in 3,253 Posts
MathNut has a reputation beyond reputeMathNut has a reputation beyond reputeMathNut has a reputation beyond reputeMathNut has a reputation beyond reputeMathNut has a reputation beyond reputeMathNut has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

Quote:
View Post
Believing in Santa Claus, or the flying spaghetti monster, etc., is tolerable, or even your kind of presumably loose Christianity,
Why presumably?
Reply With Quote
  #186  
Old 20.01.2011, 15:35
Carlos R's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Roundn'about Basel
Posts: 7,231
Groaned at 105 Times in 95 Posts
Thanked 9,934 Times in 4,178 Posts
Carlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

Quote:
View Post
Hmmm.....Mother Theresa........don't get me started please.
So hyped.

We'll be praising the saintly Diana next.
Ermm. No. Now you're just trolling.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Carlos R for this useful post:
  #187  
Old 20.01.2011, 15:43
Carlos R's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Roundn'about Basel
Posts: 7,231
Groaned at 105 Times in 95 Posts
Thanked 9,934 Times in 4,178 Posts
Carlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

Quote:
...Look at the virulent reaction against Dawkins for instance...
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Carlos R for this useful post:
  #188  
Old 20.01.2011, 15:49
Nil's Avatar
Nil Nil is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Basel
Posts: 10,356
Groaned at 428 Times in 333 Posts
Thanked 16,045 Times in 6,322 Posts
Nil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

Quote:
View Post
My point is that irrational belief itself isn't really the issue. Believing in Santa Claus, or the flying spaghetti monster, etc., is tolerable, or even your kind of presumably loose Christianity, but I doubt that the overwhelming majority is smart enough not to act on their beliefs in a way that interferes with the rest of the population. That's why it's just safer to not have these beliefs in the first place, as it eliminates the risk of them influencing politics and having unfortunate results for gays, jews, palestinians, the inadvertently pregnant (or their doctors), iraqis, pakistanis, indians, and most everyone.
That will be great in the Fairy Tale world, but in this world, people need to believe in something. It has been like that for as far as the human being exist, you won't change that. And if the religions didn't exists in the form we know with the names we know, we would have other kind of beliefs that will bring good and bad too.
Reply With Quote
  #189  
Old 20.01.2011, 16:00
Ouchboy's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Baden
Posts: 3,345
Groaned at 67 Times in 54 Posts
Thanked 5,739 Times in 2,182 Posts
Ouchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

Quote:
View Post
That will be great in the Fairy Tale world, but in this world, people need to believe in something. It has been like that for as far as the human being exist, you won't change that. And if the religions didn't exists in the form we know with the names we know, we would have other kind of beliefs that will bring good and bad too.
Let's assume that statement is granted. In what way does this statement makes religion a belief that would "overall" bring good to humanity?
Reply With Quote
  #190  
Old 20.01.2011, 16:15
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

Quote:
View Post
You do have a point that in most ways your kind of Christianity is rather benign, but, depending on one's definition of normal, it cannot be true that it's the case with "the overwhelming majority" of (at least) abrahamic religion adherents. For example, there are no rational arguments against homosexual marriage, yet it remains illegal in most US states based solely on religious belief. Roe v. Wade is susceptible to being overturned whenever there's a conservative SCOTUS majority, because god says it's wrong. When the belief manifests itself in bigotry, that's when it becomes a problem.

My point is that irrational belief itself isn't really the issue. Believing in Santa Claus, or the flying spaghetti monster, etc., is tolerable, or even your kind of presumably loose Christianity, but I doubt that the overwhelming majority is smart enough not to act on their beliefs in a way that interferes with the rest of the population. That's why it's just safer to not have these beliefs in the first place, as it eliminates the risk of them influencing politics and having unfortunate results for gays, jews, palestinians, the inadvertently pregnant (or their doctors), iraqis, pakistanis, indians, and most everyone.
Sorry, Daboy. I haven't a clue what you're on about, as I never said half the stuff you seem to think I said.

I'm merely stating the obvious fact that few people see fit to make the fine academic distinction between a person and his beliefs, that GastroGnome, being an entirely reasonable person himself, seems to believe to be more common than it actually is.

BTW, my form of Christianity is neither "loose" nor "benign". Nor, for that matter, is my belief up for discussion. But you go ahead and build a box around me... just as long as you make it nice and cosy.
Reply With Quote
  #191  
Old 20.01.2011, 16:17
Ouchboy's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Baden
Posts: 3,345
Groaned at 67 Times in 54 Posts
Thanked 5,739 Times in 2,182 Posts
Ouchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

Quote:
BTW, my form of Christianity is neither "loose" nor "benign". Nor, for that matter, is my belief up for discussion. But you go ahead and build a box around me... just as long as you make it nice and cosy.

I always thought u were some sort of British DemiGod sent down to mock my horrible spelling and grammar.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Ouchboy for this useful post:
  #192  
Old 20.01.2011, 16:18
Nil's Avatar
Nil Nil is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Basel
Posts: 10,356
Groaned at 428 Times in 333 Posts
Thanked 16,045 Times in 6,322 Posts
Nil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

Quote:
View Post
Let's assume that statement is granted. In what way does this statement makes religion a belief that would "overall" bring good to humanity?
How should I know? I didn't invent them nor that I believe in them. This question should be ask to a believer, don't you think?

That doesn't change the fact that religion exist since the beginning of humanity to answers questions that no one could answer. Religion brang good fundamental base for the society in general with the notion of bad and good into form of rules.
Reply With Quote
  #193  
Old 20.01.2011, 16:18
MusicChick's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: La Cote
Posts: 17,488
Groaned at 414 Times in 275 Posts
Thanked 20,435 Times in 10,578 Posts
MusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

While there are the atheists and agnostic views here and there are people who believe and could care less for saints, I still think it should be somewhat respected..Why would it bother me, that some people or higher principle decided to enrich the whole faith story..I guess we are all nazi generals about different issues.

Besides the smugness here, I actually think Diana is already a saint in many people's minds.
Reply With Quote
  #194  
Old 20.01.2011, 16:23
Ouchboy's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Baden
Posts: 3,345
Groaned at 67 Times in 54 Posts
Thanked 5,739 Times in 2,182 Posts
Ouchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

Quote:
View Post
How should I know? I didn't invent them nor that I believe in them. This question should be ask to a believer, don't you think?

That doesn't change the fact that religion exist since the beginning of humanity to answers questions that no one could answer. Religion brang good fundamental base for the society in general with the notion of bad and good into form of rules.
It's the use of the adjectives that give that impression.

How is genocide and slavery condoned on the bible good, for example?

I agree, it wa our first attempt at explaining the world. We moved on, time to let it go.

I usually don't mind people's religion as long as they keep it to themselves sort of. But when it starts propagating towards government and everything else it is there when I have a problem.
Reply With Quote
  #195  
Old 20.01.2011, 16:32
Nil's Avatar
Nil Nil is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Basel
Posts: 10,356
Groaned at 428 Times in 333 Posts
Thanked 16,045 Times in 6,322 Posts
Nil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

Quote:
View Post
It's the use of the adjectives that give that impression.

How is genocide and slavery condoned on the bible good, for example?

I agree, it wa our first attempt at explaining the world. We moved on, time to let it go.

I usually don't mind people's religion as long as they keep it to themselves sort of. But when it starts propagating towards government and everything else it is there when I have a problem.
Where do you think the base of a gouvernment rules and laws are coming from? Religions!

Remember the stone with the 10 rules bring to Ibrahim (I think)? That is kind of a start of what the society put his fondation on, don't you think?

And beside, you believe that the world moved on and it is time to let it go. But you have 100 millions of people around the world who think differently. That bring back some perspective.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Nil for this useful post:
  #196  
Old 20.01.2011, 16:32
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Basel
Posts: 48
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 37 Times in 16 Posts
aslor has earned some respectaslor has earned some respect
Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

Quote:
View Post
You do have a point that in most ways your kind of Christianity is rather benign, but, depending on one's definition of normal, it cannot be true that it's the case with "the overwhelming majority" of (at least) abrahamic religion adherents. For example, there are no rational arguments against homosexual marriage, yet it remains illegal in most US states based solely on religious belief. Roe v. Wade is susceptible to being overturned whenever there's a conservative SCOTUS majority, because god says it's wrong. When the belief manifests itself in bigotry, that's when it becomes a problem.

My point is that irrational belief itself isn't really the issue. Believing in Santa Claus, or the flying spaghetti monster, etc., is tolerable, or even your kind of presumably loose Christianity, but I doubt that the overwhelming majority is smart enough not to act on their beliefs in a way that interferes with the rest of the population. That's why it's just safer to not have these beliefs in the first place, as it eliminates the risk of them influencing politics and having unfortunate results for gays, jews, palestinians, the inadvertently pregnant (or their doctors), iraqis, pakistanis, indians, and most everyone.

Would thank but too new to do so. Will add that these days it isn't even necessarily tolerated to believe in Santa Claus in some countries. I've heard some frightful tales of schools, day care centers etc who are not allowed to put up the jolly man as it may offend other religions!
As to religion. Let's make a distinction between belief and organised associations. Religion isn't the bigamist, the organisation that expounds it's virtues often are.
Reply With Quote
  #197  
Old 20.01.2011, 16:34
MusicChick's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: La Cote
Posts: 17,488
Groaned at 414 Times in 275 Posts
Thanked 20,435 Times in 10,578 Posts
MusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

So, if JPII gets to be a saint, we get that day off, eventually?



Reply With Quote
  #198  
Old 20.01.2011, 16:36
Gastro Gnome's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 3,553
Groaned at 49 Times in 35 Posts
Thanked 2,856 Times in 1,550 Posts
Gastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

Quote:
View Post
That will be great in the Fairy Tale world, but in this world, people need to believe in something. It has been like that for as far as the human being exist, you won't change that. And if the religions didn't exists in the form we know with the names we know, we would have other kind of beliefs that will bring good and bad too.
You've gone Nietzchean . . . i.e. Man created God!

I don't think that we need religion so much that our brain turns any old input into spiritual material via the temporal lobe. But as soon as we realise that we can just get our spiritual kick from taking a walk in the mountains, marvelling at the technological sublime, falling in love or simply valuing your friends.

The trouble is if you turn that capacity for spirituality into a hegemonising worldview.

The other problem of this kind of rationale or justification for religiosity is that you're equating all current and future possible religions, when really most religions simply claim to be true.
Reply With Quote
  #199  
Old 20.01.2011, 16:42
Nil's Avatar
Nil Nil is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Basel
Posts: 10,356
Groaned at 428 Times in 333 Posts
Thanked 16,045 Times in 6,322 Posts
Nil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

Quote:
View Post
You've gone Nietzchean . . . i.e. Man created God!

I don't think that we need religion so much that our brain turns any old input into spiritual material via the temporal lobe. But as soon as we realise that we can just get our spiritual kick from taking a walk in the mountains, marvelling at the technological sublime, falling in love or simply valuing your friends.

The trouble is if you turn that capacity for spirituality into a hegemonising worldview.

The other problem of this kind of rationale or justification for religiosity is that you're equating all current and future possible religions, when really most religions simply claim to be true.
No, that is what I think you don,t get. It is unbelievable how even the atheist push their lack of beliefs on others! You can think what ever you want, you can believe or not as much as you want, but you can't stop someone else to do so on YOUR arguments. And how can you tell that those millions of people who believe in something bigger are in the wrong? MILLIONS! But you, you got it right, you got the real picture and know the truth? Come on!

Like the rest of the population, you'll see it when you die. But for now, you are here with people (majority) who believe in something ''special''. Let them be and hope they let you be!
Reply With Quote
  #200  
Old 20.01.2011, 16:42
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Zurich
Posts: 168
Groaned at 36 Times in 19 Posts
Thanked 78 Times in 50 Posts
daboy is considered unworthydaboy is considered unworthydaboy is considered unworthydaboy is considered unworthy
Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

Quote:
View Post
Let's assume that statement is granted. In what way does this statement makes religion a belief that would "overall" bring good to humanity?
Thankfully I only had to see the portion you quoted. But why grant her that much? Religion is absolutely unnecessary. To believe otherwise is really quite cynical, ala Leo Strauss. People need to have more faith in people. It's sad to think or argue that we need irrational beliefs just to get by, for whatever reason.

Likewise, your question whether there's a net good derived from delusion seems like a strange question to ask. It just feels so sinister. It's definitely an argument that religion is "necessary" for the masses to believe in, because of inequality, crappy life circumstances, etc., and "necessary" for those in power to use to control these people (straussian philosophy, which dominates the GOP), but it's also an argument that people are benevolent and intelligent enough to live their lives without delusion.
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Pope Visiting the UK - What would YOU yell at him? PlantHead International affairs/politics 29 25.02.2011 10:55
'Arrest The Pope' cries Richard Dawkins Castro International affairs/politics 127 14.04.2010 17:27
Pope stands firm against condoms in... Africa Russkov International affairs/politics 6 18.03.2009 15:41
Track in Bern? runner0579 Sports / Fitness / Beauty / Wellness 4 06.01.2009 11:23


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 21:58.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0