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  #201  
Old 20.01.2011, 16:47
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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It is unbelievable how even the atheist push their lack of beliefs on others!
Eh? He expressed his opinion on an internet forum, and expressed that opinion, as far as I can see, in a respectful and reasonable manner.

I never did understand why people get so upset about people sharing their views, whether those people are atheists denouncing religion as fairy tales, or Christians evangelising in the streets. The ancient Athenians used to love a good old exchange of ideas - if they could give St Paul the time of day, why can't we give Richard Dawkins, the Pope or the former Bishop of Durham a listen for a few minutes?

Nobody ever died of earache from listening to even the biggest gobsh*** express his opinions about belief.

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  #202  
Old 20.01.2011, 16:49
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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No, that is what I think you don,t get. It is unbelievable how even the atheist push their lack of beliefs on others! You can think what ever you want, you can believe or not as much as you want, but you can't stop someone else to do so on YOUR arguments. And how can you tell that those millions of people who believe in something bigger are in the wrong? MILLIONS! But you, you got it right, you got the real picture and know the truth? Come on!

Like the rest of the population, you'll see it when you die. But for now, you are here with people (majority) who believe in something ''special''. Let them be and hope they let you be!
I was merely adding to your comment that if today's religions didn't exist others would spring up in their place. I think that's probably true. But doesn't the diversity of religions make you think a little . . . they don't all say the same thing and they can't all be right.
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  #203  
Old 20.01.2011, 16:51
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Thankfully I only had to see the portion you quoted. But why grant her that much? Religion is absolutely unnecessary. To believe otherwise is really quite cynical, ala Leo Strauss. People need to have more faith in people. It's sad to think or argue that we need irrational beliefs just to get by, for whatever reason.
See for me, this is as extremist as someone who believe that if you don't you'll go straight to hell.

You can't push your illumination on others. You can believe that they are wrong if you feel it, but guess what? They can think same about you.

Anyway, I am bored belong understanding now. Because as much as I am trying to tell you that you are not exceptional and you are not in possession the ''truth'' more than the guy next door who believe in god and practice his faith, I am knocking myself on the same wall of the guy who can't see anyone else's beliefs as a ''possibility''.
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Old 20.01.2011, 16:53
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Eh? He expressed his opinion on an internet forum, and expressed that opinion, as far as I can see, in a respectful and reasonable manner.

I never did understand why people get so upset about people sharing their views, whether those people are atheists denouncing religion as fairy tales, or Christians evangelising in the streets. The ancient Athenians used to love a good old exchange of ideas - if they could give St Paul the time of day, why can't we give Richard Dawkins, the Pope or the former Bishop of Durham a listen for a few minutes?

Nobody ever died of earache from listening to even the biggest gobsh*** express his opinions about belief.

I am not talking to him in particular. But to everybody who love the ',look at the religious guy who try to push his religion on us'' and do the same with their absolut beliefs that nothing is there and it is so stupid to believe that something is there...
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  #205  
Old 20.01.2011, 16:56
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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I was merely adding to your comment that if today's religions didn't exist others would spring up in their place. I think that's probably true. But doesn't the diversity of religions make you think a little . . . they don't all say the same thing and they can't all be right.

Oups! My bad...

Of course you are right. not all of them can be right, not all of them can have the ''truth''. But I did say that long time ago! Like the Atheist, what make them (me, us) believe that we have the ''truth''?

It goes back to believe what ever you like and leave other people in peace.
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Old 20.01.2011, 16:58
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

I wouldn't want anyone to get the idea that I'm anti-people who believe in religion. Some of my best friends believe in God.

When I was a kid I went to a CEVA primary school, I sung in my local church choir, I played the organ at school and I even won prizes for reading in chapel.

As I grew up I didn't really find any faith gelling and I was went through university, studying philosophy, my position clarified. I'm not going to argue for the lack of existence of God . . . how could I possibly know that. On the other hand, to all intents and I purposes I just act as if there is no God . . . it's an unnecessary assumption.

Having said that, I don't mind the religious . . . who am I to deny them their faith?

The problems arise in areas of public policy and there has been a noticeable increase in faith-based influence on politics over the last twenty years (even as numbers of the active faithful decline). We've discussed faith-schools here before and that's a problem area for me, even though I recognise that the religious strands in my own education played a useful role.
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  #207  
Old 20.01.2011, 16:59
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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I am not talking to him in particular. But to everybody who love the ',look at the religious guy who try to push his religion on us'' and do the same with their absolut beliefs that nothing is there and it is so stupid to believe that something is there...
So what? Who cares what they think? We are still free to believe what we want. We are still free to worship without interference. We are still free to tell them that they are wrong.

What difference does it make if somebody else chooses not to believe the same as us? What difference does it make if they choose to share that difference in belief?
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  #208  
Old 20.01.2011, 17:07
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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I wouldn't want anyone to get the idea that I'm anti-people who believe in religion. Some of my best friends believe in God.
Yes, and some of my best friends are black...

just joshing with ya'
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  #209  
Old 20.01.2011, 17:12
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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What difference does it make if somebody else chooses not to believe the same as us? What difference does it make if they choose to share that difference in belief?
ur ass is on a boat and u get sent to a new continent... no??
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Old 20.01.2011, 17:13
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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I wouldn't want anyone to get the idea that I'm anti-people who believe in religion. Some of my best friends believe in God.

When I was a kid I went to a CEVA primary school, I sung in my local church choir, I played the organ at school and I even won prizes for reading in chapel.

As I grew up I didn't really find any faith gelling and I was went through university, studying philosophy, my position clarified. I'm not going to argue for the lack of existence of God . . . how could I possibly know that. On the other hand, to all intents and I purposes I just act as if there is no God . . . it's an unnecessary assumption.

Having said that, I don't mind the religious . . . who am I to deny them their faith?

The problems arise in areas of public policy and there has been a noticeable increase in faith-based influence on politics over the last twenty years (even as numbers of the active faithful decline). We've discussed faith-schools here before and that's a problem area for me, even though I recognise that the religious strands in my own education played a useful role.
Amen brother Amen! That is my whole point! I have been to a catholic school where I had to confess a certain amount of time per year, we were all forced to do it. After the 6th grade, when I entered in High School, I felt like I had to go and confess because this is what I had to do for the whole primary school. And I got my wake up call there. I began to think that it was silly and slowly, throw the high school I went out of it completely.

I am not a believer, my husband is. He can look at the Quran and think about it with a logical point of view. He sees most of what is in there as a ''guideline'' not something to follow to the very last dot. And as long as I am not a believer, I find his way to believe very healthy. He respects me as much as I respect him in both our way of seeing the believing thing.

Why should I force my way on him? Why should he do that on me? He is happy, I am happy and we are totally happy together. Happy happy happy!

It is possible to have two different beliefs living together in a same house. It should be the same in society. But as long as people will try to push their way on each others and disrespect each other, we won't get anything good out of it.

Which brings me back to respect! You can give your opinion but you should be able to do it with respect for others.
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Old 20.01.2011, 17:15
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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...We are still free to tell them that they are wrong.
Hmm, careful, now. You believe you're right, of course, and with your reputation...
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Old 20.01.2011, 17:16
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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I was merely adding to your comment that if today's religions didn't exist others would spring up in their place. I think that's probably true. But doesn't the diversity of religions make you think a little . . . they don't all say the same thing and they can't all be right.
Yes, but religious people believe that one of those many religions is probably right. They only differ insfar as agreeing which one it is. Atheists believe none is right.
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Old 20.01.2011, 17:18
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Yes, but religious people believe that one of those many religions is probably right. They only differ insfar as agreeing which one it is. Atheists believe none is right.
Which ironically enough is a belief system in itself...
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Old 20.01.2011, 17:20
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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So what? Who cares what they think? Yep, who cares.... We are still free to believe what we want. sadly not everywhere We are still free to worship without interference. We are still free to tell them that they are wrong. And to tell you that you are wrong too...

What difference does it make if somebody else chooses not to believe the same as us? It shouldn't make any difference, that is my whole point since how many pages again? What difference does it make if they choose to share that difference in belief?
I guess the difference is that you share the planet with people who have an IQ going from 10 to 170. And it that range, you'll find a hell lot of idiots who won't have a problem to tell you their side of story and probably in less manner than you'll do it. Now, I don't have a problem with that, but tell to the people to stop complaining about fights, war and other stupid things made from stupid ideas of superiority and freedom to share their point of view with everybody, like it or not.
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Old 20.01.2011, 17:23
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

Anostics and atheists are essentially the same, since an implication of heisenberg's uncertainty principle is that there are no certainties in life. Of course the christian narrative _could_ be true, notwithstanding the documented historical arbitrariness of it all. By staggering coincidence it could be the case that any one of the religions we invented could actually correspond with reality. It's just very unlikely. All we know is that we are here.

A reasonable atheist simply says there is no evidence for the belief in god(s), not that there couldn't be any. Of course there could be. Atheism isn't a belief, and it's exceeding dumb to say that it is. To roughly quote hitchens, we're all atheists. Christians are atheists towards other religions. Atheists just go one more step. We don't get angry and say non believers in the tooth fairy are espousing their "beliefs." To say, "there is no evidence for a tooth fairy" isn't at all an equal position to "I believe in the tooth fairy."
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Old 20.01.2011, 17:24
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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The problems arise in areas of public policy and there has been a noticeable increase in faith-based influence on politics over the last twenty years (even as numbers of the active faithful decline). We've discussed faith-schools here before and that's a problem area for me, even though I recognise that the religious strands in my own education played a useful role.
Virtually all our laws and customs untimately are based on religion. Even if the government doesn't ask the religious leaders directly or consults holy books, it consults public opinion, or at least tries not to go against it more than is necessary. Even people who profess to be non religious hold opinions that are in some way shaped by religious influences. Hence in predominantly Christian countries, the law reflects to some degree Christian views on what is right and wrong etc. In Muslim countries ditto for Muslim views. Even if the importance of religion fades, you cannot have a society or a lawbok that is completely free of religious influence.
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Old 20.01.2011, 17:26
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

Douglas Adams explains it a lot better, in an interview shortly before his death:

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Other people will ask how I can possibly claim to know. Isn't belief-that-there-is-not-a-god as irrational, arrogant, etc., as belief-that-there-is-a-god? To which I say no for several reasons. First of all I do not believe-that-there-is-not-a-god. I don't see what belief has got to do with it. I believe or don't believe my four-year-old daughter when she tells me that she didn't make that mess on the floor. I believe in justice and fair play (though I don't know exactly how we achieve them, other than by continually trying against all possible odds of success). I also believe that England should enter the European Monetary Union. I am not remotely enough of an economist to argue the issue vigorously with someone who is, but what little I do know, reinforced with a hefty dollop of gut feeling, strongly suggests to me that it's the right course. I could very easily turn out to be wrong, and I know that. These seem to me to be legitimate uses for the word believe. As a carapace for the protection of irrational notions from legitimate questions, however, I think that the word has a lot of mischief to answer for. So, I do not believe-that-there-is-no-god. I am, however, convinced that there is no god, which is a totally different stance and takes me on to my second reason.

I don't accept the currently fashionable assertion that any view is automatically as worthy of respect as any equal and opposite view. My view is that the moon is made of rock. If someone says to me, "Well, you haven't been there, have you? You haven't seen it for yourself, so my view that it is made of Norwegian beaver cheese is equally valid"-then I can't even be bothered to argue."
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  #218  
Old 20.01.2011, 17:27
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Atheists just go one more step. We don't get angry ...
You've obviously never heard of the Dawkins guy then. He is the living proof that there such a thing as an Atheist Fundamentalist, the atheist equivalent of Augustine and Ignatius rolled into one.
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  #219  
Old 20.01.2011, 17:30
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Anostics and atheists are essentially the same...
Err no. Which suggests you don't really understand what you are writing about.

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Atheism isn't a belief, and it's exceeding dumb to say that it is.
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a·the·ist (th-st) n. One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.

ergo a belief system
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Old 20.01.2011, 17:30
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Anostics and atheists are essentially the same, since an implication of heisenberg's uncertainty principle is that there are no certainties in life.
If that were so then it would be uncertain whether Heisenberg itself were right, and so his theory would be pretty useless.
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