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  #221  
Old 20.01.2011, 17:31
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Virtually all our laws and customs untimately are based on religion. Even if the government doesn't ask the religious leaders directly or consults holy books, it consults public opinion, or at least tries not to go against it more than is necessary. Even people who profess to be non religious hold opinions that are in some way shaped by religious influences. Hence in predominantly Christian countries, the law reflects to some degree Christian views on what is right and wrong etc. In Muslim countries ditto for Muslim views. Even if the importance of religion fades, you cannot have a society or a lawbok that is completely free of religious influence.
Lol. Causation much? Our laws are based on the laws (religions) we invented? Brilliant! hehe. I don't know what else to say about this... You cannot be serious?
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  #222  
Old 20.01.2011, 17:33
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Which ironically enough is a belief system in itself...
Ironically it isn't.
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  #223  
Old 20.01.2011, 17:34
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Virtually all our laws and customs untimately are based on religion. Even if the government doesn't ask the religious leaders directly or consults holy books, it consults public opinion, or at least tries not to go against it more than is necessary. Even people who profess to be non religious hold opinions that are in some way shaped by religious influences. Hence in predominantly Christian countries, the law reflects to some degree Christian views on what is right and wrong etc. In Muslim countries ditto for Muslim views. Even if the importance of religion fades, you cannot have a society or a lawbok that is completely free of religious influence.

Uhmm, some would say it's the other way around, religion only plays catch up to public opinion to keep itself relevant. I don't believe societies existed without laws before some guy said he wrote them down on a tablet.

Even the laws religion supposedly enforces are readily broken within the texts that lay them out, sometimes I think religion is not a giver of morailty, it is a merely a tool to excuse lapse of morality in the name of a higher power.
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  #224  
Old 20.01.2011, 17:36
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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A reasonable atheist simply says there is no evidence for the belief in god(s), not that there couldn't be any. Of course there could be. Atheism isn't a belief,
So the atheist says there is no evdience but he does not believe there is no evidence?

Either he believes, and then that is by extension religious.
Or he does not believe and then he is just an attention whore who doesn't believe his own words.
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  #225  
Old 20.01.2011, 17:46
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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So the atheist says there is no evdience but he does not believe there is no evidence?

Either he believes, and then that is by extension religious.
Or he does not believe and then he is just an attention whore who doesn't believe his own words.
Lol. Well I am almost sure you are kidding, but just in case you aren't, I will help clarify it for you. It is not the case that atheists believe there are no god(s). It is the case that atheists know there is no evidence for god(s). To not believe is not the same as to believe not. This is really rudimentary logic here. You and Carlos must surely be trolling. The alternative is... well....

In case you aren't trolling, Carlos, explain the difference between agnostics and atheists then, in a world where nothing is certain except for logical trivialities... Also explain how disbelief equals belief.

See, Doug? This is what i mean.... It's all so hopeless!
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  #226  
Old 20.01.2011, 18:10
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Lol. Well I am almost sure you are kidding, but just in case you aren't, I will help clarify it for you. It is not the case that atheists believe there are no god(s). It is the case that atheists know there is no evidence for god(s).....
Actually both of the above are atheists. It all depends which sect of atheism you subscribe to.


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In case you aren't trolling, Carlos, explain the difference between agnostics and atheists then
In the theological sense, Agnostics believe the existence or non existence of God is unknowable.
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  #227  
Old 20.01.2011, 18:26
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Lol. Well I am almost sure you are kidding, but just in case you aren't, I will help clarify it for you. It is not the case that atheists believe there are no god(s). It is the case that atheists know there is no evidence for god(s).
You mean to say "not believe" is not the same "to know for sure despite having no evidence". I would say the latters is what all religions also do to some extent. Just because you cannot see the difference does not mean there is no difference. I am sure that anybody who firmly believes in his religion will tell you that what sets his religions apart from the others is that the others are irrational silly beliefs and a waste of time whereas his is the absolute truth "because we know" or "because it is". As far as I can see atheists are doing precisely that and nothing else.

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To not believe is not the same as to believe not.
Nobody is casting doubt on that. But if atheists did merely "not believe" then why would they have to get so worked up about it? Why do people like Dawkins go out and preach their nonsense? It is because they not only "believe not" bit think they "know that not".

Imagine how silly Darwin would have looked when he got up on his soap boy and told people "I'm not saying I believe humans did come from monkeys but I'm saying I don't believe there is any evidence that we didn't".

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  #228  
Old 20.01.2011, 18:32
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Actually both of the above are atheists. It all depends which sect of atheism you subscribe to.





In the theological sense, Agnostics believe the existence or non existence of God is unknowable.
Since the truth of almost any proposition is ultimately unknowable, in a very real sense, it renders that distiction irrelevant. Atheism equals agnosticism because of epistemological limitations discovered in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries.

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  #229  
Old 20.01.2011, 18:37
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Lol. Well I am almost sure you are kidding, but just in case you aren't, I will help clarify it for you. It is not the case that atheists believe there are no god(s). It is the case that atheists know there is no evidence for god(s). To not believe is not the same as to believe not. This is really rudimentary logic here. You and Carlos must surely be trolling. The alternative is... well....


Maybe I'm just being pedantic, but I'm just going by dictionnary definitions. My dictionnary says that an atheist is one who believes there is no God or does not believe in a God. See above.

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In case you aren't trolling, Carlos, explain the difference between agnostics and atheists then, in a world where nothing is certain except for logical trivialities... Also explain how disbelief equals belief.
An agnostic, however, is someone who sees no evidence of God, but at the same also acknowledges that there is no evidence the he/she/it doesn't exist either, i.e. "i don't know".

An atheist, however, believes that God does not exist, aka a belief system. (Wasn't I clear enough the first time?)

The key is in the etymology...

Agnostic from Greek: agnostos "unknown, unknowable," from a- "not" + gnostos "(to be) known"

Atheist from Greek atheos "to deny the gods, godless," from a- "without" + theos "a god"

I would, respectfully - of course - suggest that you have your terms and understanding of the words you are using muddled.
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  #230  
Old 20.01.2011, 18:46
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Since the truth of almost any proposition is ultimately unknowable, in a very real sense, it renders that distiction irrelevant. Atheism equals agnosticism because of epistemological limitations discovered in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries.
But it was you who was trying to make definitions and draw distinctions.
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  #231  
Old 20.01.2011, 18:56
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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...in a world where nothing is certain except for logical trivialities... Also explain how disbelief equals belief.

... It's all so hopeless!
You seem to still be stuck in the post modern over relativist mindset.

In the meantime, if there is a religion that cares for their saints, why would we criticize it. If that specific church is spread or rich, the influence is logical. The only way to counter negative impact is to offer something better, so the ones who criticize could get busy trying to figure out what it is...Instead of looking down upon and rip on members of that church, that's old.
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  #232  
Old 20.01.2011, 19:06
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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but he did re-affirm the Catholic dogma of the non-use of condoms during the height of the AIDS pandemic
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Is that the same Mother Theresa who was... totally against any reform in the Catholic church?
The one who visited Haiti as a guest of the Duvaliers, and said that "the poor people so familiar with their head of state as they were with her. It was a beautiful lesson for me." ?
The one who told thousands of women who were victims of rape during the Bangladeshi Independence War that they should have the children anyway?
Actually, rightly or wrongly, as far as the Catholic Church is concerned, there's nothing that stipulates the life of the candidate for sainthood has to have lived a spotless or blameless life.

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I admired JPII as a person too, but just feel that all the surrounding tat of Catholic pomp is detracting from the good man.
Miracles aside, that's the kind of talk that gets a candidate on the radar screen...someone who is recognized for his/her goodness and who is worthy of being looked up to. Other candidates can get on the radar screen because of their holiness or martyrdom.
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  #233  
Old 21.01.2011, 00:00
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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No, that is what I think you don,t get. It is unbelievable how even the atheist push their lack of beliefs on others! You can think what ever you want, you can believe or not as much as you want, but you can't stop someone else to do so on YOUR arguments. And how can you tell that those millions of people who believe in something bigger are in the wrong? MILLIONS! But you, you got it right, you got the real picture and know the truth? Come on!

Like the rest of the population, you'll see it when you die. But for now, you are here with people (majority) who believe in something ''special''. Let them be and hope they let you be!
But doesn't the diversity of religions make you think a little . . . they don't all say the same thing and they can't all be right.
& as you say millions or multi millions belong to these religions but these religions are not the same so which of these religions is in the wrong & which in the right.
Or are they all in the wrong, or all in the right and how do we move forward?
Or does it not matter if the religions are different & if so, what is the point of selecting one to live by? for example, is my holy day a Saturday or a Sunday & which offers my day or rest & on which day?
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  #234  
Old 21.01.2011, 00:20
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

The right side was mentioned at the beginning of the thread - and I've asked twice- which is the RIGHT side, please?
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  #235  
Old 21.01.2011, 08:16
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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But doesn't the diversity of religions make you think a little . . . they don't all say the same thing and they can't all be right.
& as you say millions or multi millions belong to these religions but these religions are not the same so which of these religions is in the wrong & which in the right.
Or are they all in the wrong, or all in the right and how do we move forward?
Or does it not matter if the religions are different & if so, what is the point of selecting one to live by? for example, is my holy day a Saturday or a Sunday & which offers my day or rest & on which day?
But it doesn't matter who is right and who is wrong, what is matter is that the religion you are in or not is right for you. Religion help people to have something to make sense in their life, to give them a sense of being a part of something bigger. It gives them assurance throw faith that their life are not meaningless.

That is enough for me to respect that and I don't feel the need to find out who is right and who is wrong. They all believe in something bigger (God called in many names) and the way they practice their faith is just a way to get closer to Him.
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  #236  
Old 21.01.2011, 08:18
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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The right side was mentioned at the beginning of the thread - and I've asked twice- which is the RIGHT side, please?
Honestly, since nobody died and came back to life since 2000 years (as said in the Bible) to tell us what is the truth, you'll find out when you die.
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  #237  
Old 21.01.2011, 09:01
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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The right side was mentioned at the beginning of the thread - and I've asked twice- which is the RIGHT side, please?
Your answer can be found here, @ about 2:10 onwards...

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  #238  
Old 21.01.2011, 09:14
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

There is only one true religion, all the non believers will be damned

http://www.venganza.org/
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Old 21.01.2011, 09:44
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Honestly, since nobody died and came back to life since 2000 years (as said in the Bible) to tell us what is the truth, you'll find out when you die.
Most probably you won't.. cause you know... you'll be dead!!!
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  #240  
Old 21.01.2011, 09:45
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

Ooooh, how evil of you.
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Most probably you won't.. cause you know... you'll be dead!!!
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