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  #281  
Old 21.01.2011, 14:58
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Yes. It gets EFed up when humans get involved.
Ouch. That bad?
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  #282  
Old 21.01.2011, 15:02
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Dawkins doesn't claim authority from some unknowable power and expects proper explanations on why people don't agree with him.
No, even worse, he claims authority because he knows and is inacabable of imagining that other people may have different interpretations of the world around them.
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  #283  
Old 21.01.2011, 15:06
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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I have a scientific background (BSc, MSc) in human science. I marvel daily at the beauty of the human body and world around me. Every scientific discovery reveals another level of complexity in how the world/universe works. I just believe that it is too perfect to be random chance.
Natural selection ( to just name one thing) is anything BUT random.
That is a misuse of the word.

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Pope as God's man on earth. Dunno. He is that man, to me, and sometimes you disconnect with what our "leaders" might be saying. I try not to follow what people tell me blindly, unless they are a Basel police officer. At times, I see a good man trying to do his best and "hold it together". At other times, I see the mistakes and shake my head in dispair.

I believe in the Sanctity of the Church. I fear the influence of Man.
Those are somewhat opposing ideas. The sanctity of the church is based on a dogma. The same dogma that states papal infallibility. If you think that the pope makes mistakes you do not believe then in papa infalibility OR the dogma.


You don't believe that the bible is the literal word of God. That's cool, but the argument for having a judge with which to appeal to for moral certainty is pretty much out to for you too.( I say too as that is one of the arguments from theists against atheists)

As soon as you must "interpret" the bible you get into relativistic terms of morality.


I still don't know how deuteronomy can be interpreted as not condoning slavery, genocide, or stoning kids.
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  #284  
Old 21.01.2011, 15:07
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

Dawkins:

I had to look up for him on internet, because the way people talk about him here with him saying this, him believing that... I thought he was at the head of a movement or something....

Sounds a bit like those guys:

-Mohammed said this, Jesus said that....
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  #285  
Old 21.01.2011, 15:09
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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The Pope deceased, John Paul II, is to be"fast-tracked" to sainthood (???) because a French nun with Parkinson's disease prayed to him and recovered!!
Hallelujah - praise the Lord!!

Please excuse me if I am somewhat sceptical............

What's your opinion on this?
I am one degree of separation from J-P II and know from that one degree that J-P was a fabulous man as well as an influencial Pope. And I'm not RC.

He was influencial, IIRC, in ending the cold war.

In other one degree of separation news, Saddam Hussain was misunderstood and was what Iraq needed. Trust me to meet the former UN Humanitarian Coordinator two weeks after the kangaroo court sentence of hanging was carried out....a very interesting chap.

So Saint J-P II and Saddam will be separated by three degrees, max. I would dare to suggest one degree is correct, though.

Bring it on, Saint J-P!
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  #286  
Old 21.01.2011, 15:19
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Dawkins:

I had to look up for him on internet, because the way people talk about him here with him saying this, him believing that... I thought he was at the head of a movement or something....

Sounds a bit like those guys:

-Mohammed said this, Jesus said that....
Why not read his 'main book 'the God delusion', with an open mind. Many who oppose him, have never read it. Just like most who threatened Salman Rushdie never read his 'Satanic verses'. (I must say I never did either - tried but failed).
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  #287  
Old 21.01.2011, 15:23
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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No, even worse, he claims authority because he knows and is inacabable of imagining that other people may have different interpretations of the world around them.
But he never threatens you with eternal damnation, or deprive you of your after life, there is no stick with which to beat you over the head, he may have some intelectual authority, but you have nothing to fear from it, apart from looking stupid. So i would like to know, in which way is that worse?
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  #288  
Old 21.01.2011, 15:24
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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But he never threatens you with eternal damnation, or deprive you of your after life, there is no stick with which to beat you over the head, he may have some intelectual authority, but you have nothing to fear from it, apart from looking stupid. So i would like to know, in which way is that worse?
well he gave me a huge amount of LOLZ

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  #289  
Old 21.01.2011, 15:25
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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It's funny... I used to find Richard Dawkins quite offensive when I was an atheist.

Now I'm no longer an atheist, I just find him amusing.
I would say he's not a good advert for what he preaches.
He seems so uptight considering he's saying dropping your belief in your god will make you free and happier.
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  #290  
Old 21.01.2011, 15:31
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Ouch. That bad?
I thought that was quite apt, and the standard stuff got filtered
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  #291  
Old 21.01.2011, 15:40
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Natural selection ( to just name one thing) is anything BUT random. That is a misuse of the word.
I'm looking at the big picture Ouchboy, life the universe, everything. I'm not trying to convert anyone. I was asked a direct question about my faith and I tried to answer it as best I could in the context of not writing a thesis on a public forum.

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Those are somewhat opposing ideas. The sanctity of the church is based on a dogma. The same dogma that states papal infallibility. If you think that the pope makes mistakes you do not believe then in papa infalibility OR the dogma.

You don't believe that the bible is the literal word of God. That's cool, but the argument for having a judge with which to appeal to for moral certainty is pretty much out to for you too.( I say too as that is one of the arguments from theists against atheists)

As soon as you must "interpret" the bible you get into relativistic terms of morality.

I still don't know how deuteronomy can be interpreted as not condoning slavery, genocide, or stoning kids.
<Sigh>

You're focusing very much on my RC view of Christianity.

The world is full of contradictions. I've learned to live with them and myself.

As I said, my parents probably pray for me. Hard.
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  #292  
Old 21.01.2011, 15:43
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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It's true, identifying oneself with one team does kinda mean for many football fans automatically negating the other, but it is mostly friendly, innit. When it ain't, we don't blame the game per se, but fanatic fans and their need to be fanatic, or society that makes people this way. It's pretty normal.

The question that interests me the most, what religion, then, offers the biggest amount of spirituality (and maybe the most honest, closest to the truth rather than dreams and illusions)? That is, what football team has the best technique and M.O.for its players. Fair, user friendly, honest, attainable, available, etc...
Not a good comparison with football! The sport heirarchy actually condemn fan violence, support police efforts to stop it & fine clubs where it happens.
Whereas the religious heirarchy are quiet on this topic; there is usually significant effort to enforce commandment 7 "thou shalt not commit adultury" but no enforcement of commandment 6 "You shall not murder" when their followers start killing followers of other religions.
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  #293  
Old 21.01.2011, 15:47
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

Did you watch the u-tube vid on what Christians daily write to him? I don't think that are such a good example.
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  #294  
Old 21.01.2011, 15:50
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

On a lighter note:

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  #295  
Old 21.01.2011, 15:55
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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The same dogma that states papal infallibility. If you think that the pope makes mistakes you do not believe then in papa infalibility OR the dogma.
Just a comment on papal infallibility:

Papal infallibility only applies to when the Pope speaks ex-cathedra on matters of doctrine of faith to be held by the entire Church. Comments, decisions, and pronouncements made by the Pope are not always deemed infallible - specific conditions apply.

(There's a lot of theological stuff behind this, but that's the digested read...)

Nor is the Pope considered free from sin or error in his personal life - he is human, after all.

As for the Bible as the word of God...

Reaching back through the mists of memory of my Catholic upbringing, while we accept the Bible as the word (teaching) of God, we were always taught that the Bible is not to be interpreted literally, but rather symbolically and spiritually.

(Even Sister Mary Isadore - a strict traditionalist who we 4th graders knew to be infallible, even if the Pope had a get-out clause - drilled it into our heads that we had to search for the meaning behind the story. And she would heartily thump us with an eraser when we committed the sin of slothful thinking by relying on the literal interpretation.)

---

But hey, I'm a lapsed Catholic... and highly fallible. So don't take my word for it...

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  #296  
Old 21.01.2011, 15:59
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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But hey, I'm a lapsed Catholic...
I'll pray for you if you pray for me
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  #297  
Old 21.01.2011, 15:59
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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I don't believe that the Bible is the literal Word of God. Rather, I believe it is a guide that should be translated to a humanitarian (for want of the right word) level and the world we live in today.
But how do you think the Bible came to be written. What was God's role? The writers were presumably imbued with the holy spirit or somesuch. It's this bit I'm not really clear on.

Even if it's not the direct word of God it is the basis for most of what Christians believe.

So . . . you have to have an account of why you believe the Bible, even as a guide rather than an accurate account.

Or do you just believe it was made up by the writers, but happens to provide some useful guidance? That's a rather weak interpretation for a Christian, I would have thought.
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  #298  
Old 21.01.2011, 16:01
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Reaching back through the mists of memory of my Catholic upbringing, while we accept the Bible as the word (teaching) of God, we were always taught that the Bible is not to be interpreted literally, but rather symbolically and spiritually.
I wasn't supposing that anyone here did take it literally. I merely wonder how you can recognise and then interpret it as a message from God. This seems to be rather more than simply believing in God.
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  #299  
Old 21.01.2011, 16:06
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Not a good comparison with football! The sport heirarchy actually condemn fan violence, support police efforts to stop it & fine clubs where it happens.
Whereas the religious heirarchy are quiet on this topic; there is usually significant effort to enforce commandment 7 "thou shalt not commit adultury" but no enforcement of commandment 6 "You shall not murder" when their followers start killing followers of other religions.
Some are a bit loose on reporting commandment 7, although maybe it's because of what I once heard a comedian say.

"You got to wonder about these priests, they can't sleep with women, because that's adultery, they can't sleep with men, also a terrible sin, looks like some got to thinking that noone said anything about sleeping with young boys and girls".
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  #300  
Old 21.01.2011, 16:08
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

Many do though. Look at creationists and many Evangelical groups. You were lucky to have such open-minded Catholic teachers Meloncollie. Many, like my father, did NOT and spent their childhood and to some extent their adult lives, frightened.

This was in reply to Gastronome's comment. Posts with cyrus crossed. (although to be fair...)
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