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Old 21.01.2011, 15:18
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Just a comment on papal infallibility:

Papal infallibility only applies to when the Pope speaks ex-cathedra on matters of doctrine of faith to be held by the entire Church. Comments, decisions, and pronouncements made by the Pope are not always deemed infallible - specific conditions apply.
You see here in lies the problem, ex cathedra teaching explicitly tells that you either believe the assumption of Mary as true or you are outside the catholic faith. No interpretaion, no nothing. Done deal.



I'll decline answering Carlos post as it is ahm.. I lack the world in english...
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  #302  
Old 21.01.2011, 15:22
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Did you watch the u-tube vid on what Christians daily write to him? I don't think that are such a good example.

that made my day. A classic...

Love Dawkins. It's a great read, and he even has a sense of humour.
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  #303  
Old 21.01.2011, 15:31
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Many do though. Look at creationists and many Evangelical groups. You were lucky to have such open-minded Catholic teachers Meloncollie. Many, like my father, did NOT and spent their childhood and to some extent their adult lives, frightened.

This was in reply to Gastronome's comment. Posts with cyrus crossed. (although to be fair...)
The nice thing about those who take the Bible literally is that at least they have a falsifiable belief. Unless you don't believe in the various techniques for dating the Earth and the fossil record, then the Bible obviously has to be taken figuratively. But then believers are in the nice position of having a non-falsifiable position again.

I'm more interested in how believers justify to themselves their belief in specific religious texts, traditions and practises. I understand that most of them will say 'I grew up in that tradition'. That's an explanation . . . but it's not a justification. And you really have to have an account of how those texts became understood as holy and how those practises emerged. Or do you simply leave this all as 'mystery' . . . That seems rather unsatisfying to me. It leaves the door open to believing absolutely anything and merely being able to justify it by saying, 'I believe'.
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  #304  
Old 21.01.2011, 15:38
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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The Pope deceased, John Paul II, is to be"fast-tracked" to sainthood (???) because a French nun with Parkinson's disease prayed to him and recovered!!
Hallelujah - praise the Lord!!

Please excuse me if I am somewhat sceptical............

What's your opinion on this?
My opinion is that he was the best pope ever. He was also quite handsome and fun when he was younger.
Probably he had to make a choice at one point in his life and decide whether he wanted to be a saint or a, well, something in the opposite extreme.
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  #305  
Old 21.01.2011, 15:59
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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I wasn't supposing that anyone here did take it literally. I merely wonder how you can recognise and then interpret it as a message from God. This seems to be rather more than simply believing in God.
Ok, at the risk of being shot down in flames ... again ..... I got an interesting, for me, theory about the Bible....

The Old Testament is the history of the Jews .....It begins with a non-scientific story about how the world came into being ....obviously meant for non-scientific and simple folk...... but it does get the stages of evolution in the correct order, quite a feat for ancients ....... and it gives very sound advice on how to set up your camping ground, what is hygienic and what is not .. how to recognise contagious diseases .... and how they settled their neighborhood disputes, in the days prior to law-enforcement officers in every village.

The New Testament ... well, in my opinion, reading it as an "instruction" booklet .... I find that, whoever wrote it, or contributed to the writing ..... is simply stating how best humans should be running their lives..... And to beware of Super Religious contingements who blast their beliefs openly, and to not brag about any "good" deeds you may have done ... just get on with being humble and compassionate to those around you.
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  #306  
Old 21.01.2011, 16:06
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

Some of us grew with several religious 'traditions' that were at each other's throats, even though they worshipped the same God.

In my and my OH's family in the past few generations
Catholics
Protestants
Huguenots
Dutch Reformed Church
Methodists
Nuslims
Atheists
Humanists

Just with the first two - which is the 'right' side. Easier now in modern CH (a big oecumenical service at our Church on Sunday) but more difficult even in UK, and especially in Ireland. But in the 40s and 50s, it was a very different story. And not much before that, it was burning and torture in the name of the same God Now the 'enemy' is elsewhere (mind you the Crusades and the Inquisition were not much fun either). Nobody as yet replied to the basic question how does one choose the 'right' side. Is it just the one of your tradition, the one you were born with - or the one you select because, for whatever reason, it makes sense to YOU. Never been a follower or a sheep - so if I chose one side, tradition and heritage would not be the reason.

As Dave Allen said 'may YOUR God go with you'- but please respect my decision to go with neither.

Last edited by Odile; 21.01.2011 at 16:30.
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Old 21.01.2011, 16:33
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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But hey, I'm a lapsed Catholic... and highly fallible. So don't take my word for it...
But Catholics who do still attend mass are not experts, they're only 'practising'.
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  #308  
Old 21.01.2011, 16:35
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

Being a 'lapsed' Catholic is a lot easier now than it was just a generation ago.
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Old 21.01.2011, 16:46
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

I would put it this way.

There are how to books for just about anything. Ikea furniture comes with a manual, anything comes with a manual which explains how to use, how to put together, how to make sense of what you got yourself there all in pieces.

I think life and the Bible goes a bit in that direction too. Its a manual, a guideline for the package called life, it is for those who feel that is what they want.

If I don't want that Ikea furniture, I'm not gonna read those manuals either.

Now if this is making any sense to a GastroGnomes mind I have no idea. I didn't think it all through really you know.


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I'm more interested in how believers justify to themselves their belief in specific religious texts, traditions and practises. I understand that most of them will say 'I grew up in that tradition'. That's an explanation . . . but it's not a justification. And you really have to have an account of how those texts became understood as holy and how those practises emerged. Or do you simply leave this all as 'mystery' . . . That seems rather unsatisfying to me. It leaves the door open to believing absolutely anything and merely being able to justify it by saying, 'I believe'.
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Old 21.01.2011, 17:36
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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I'm more interested in how believers justify to themselves their belief in specific religious texts, traditions and practises. I understand that most of them will say 'I grew up in that tradition'. That's an explanation . . . but it's not a justification. And you really have to have an account of how those texts became understood as holy and how those practises emerged. Or do you simply leave this all as 'mystery' . . . That seems rather unsatisfying to me. It leaves the door open to believing absolutely anything and merely being able to justify it by saying, 'I believe'.
I really don't mean to offend anyone, least of you, but it's not interesting at all, which I'm sure you know. You're being rhetorical. That is exactly how they justify it, by saying "i believe." It cannot be justified. They simply don't think about it out of sheer stubbornness, or are ill-equipped to do so through lack of education or intellect.

But you do highlight a very important point, which I put in bold. This in itself wouldn't be a problem, but these people can vote. This is the whole issue. Atheists aren't "all up in arms" or whatever, or at least not over nothing. It's because these irrational beliefs have consequences for all people living in a democracy. And once you accept one preposterous thing what's to stop you from living your entire life with absolutely no rational criteria for forming beliefs. This is exasperated by the fact that it's mostly the religious people who end up voting (i believe 85% of us evangelicals vote, versus what? 49% average? And their pastors tell them who or what to vote for). This makes them dangerous lemmings. Plus the electoral college favours red states (which is where these evangelicals are found), giving them more votes per capita than high population blue states. And ironically the "normal" people, including also those with some kind of benign, non-harmful belief, tend to be apathetic and don't participate. One can argue that the solution then would be to mobilize these people, which is fair enough, but that's difficult, for obvious reasons (they're apathetic), and it's unfair to have to resort to that when the real problem is caused by stone age nonsense.

Even if all religion were of the benign kind - by that I just mean that where people have been at least smart enough to discard harmful stuff like gender inequality, homophobia, the "right to life" crap, etc, while still maintaining some vague, wishy washy christianity - it's still sinister since it's principally a method of social control. In Europe these religions even get tax money. Pretty much everywhere they get generous tax deductions. Even Scientology, if i'm not mistaken. Granted most do a lot of good with the money they raise.

Last edited by daboy; 21.01.2011 at 17:40. Reason: added a parenthetical for clarity.
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  #311  
Old 21.01.2011, 17:39
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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I'm more interested in how believers justify to themselves their belief in specific religious texts, traditions and practises
...
And you really have to have an account of how those texts became understood as holy and how those practises emerged. Or do you simply leave this all as 'mystery'...
What Smoky said + the following... again this is me.

The OT is historical tales + practical guidance.

If you look at the some of the writing, it really is practical stuff for an age where there was little water, no refrigeration systems and you did live hand to mouth.

I don't for a moment believe that it was written as it happened, rather as writing took hold, the stories passed down generation to generation as the bedrock of Judaism were put into writing. Remembering of course, that while the Dead Sea scrolls are the oldest known transcription, there were doubtless some before hand but these have been lost to time.

Needless to say, you're going to get the Chinese whispers effect, as stories are repeated generation to generation with the odd symbolism and exaggeration thrown in for good measure.

For the NT, I think it is a little different. The 4 Gospels were written post the event as stories of what happened to capture the event. I believe that they are meant to represent accurately - more or less - the events of the time. Yes, it could all be a big hoax, and I have nothing but my faith to prove otherwise. If I'm wrong, then really it doesn't matter does it?

The other books of the NT are a narrative of the early days of the Church and instructions and letters from the disciples and early Church leaders, as well as the Books of Revelation. With the exception of the last, these are basically the early instructions to a growing Church, passed between the different communities. So guidance if you will from the early Church elders.

Revelations. Quite frankly I don't know what to make of it.

There is, in reality, probably much more in terms of what was written, but this is what was captured/kept through the ages, and unless you believe in the Da Vinci code, there's probably not much chance of things changing on this front.

Does this answer your question GG?

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Nobody as yet replied to the basic question how does one choose the 'right' side. Is it just the one of your tradition, the one you were born with - or the one you select because, for whatever reason, it makes sense to YOU.
Either or both or whatever moves you. There is no "right" answer to this. I "chose" RC because that is how I was raised. I questioned it at various points in my life, and so far I've stayed with it, even if, as with Meloncolie, a little vaguely at times...

There is no excuse for using the "main" religions to justify aggression against another. So while you and your OH's families may have grown up in a traumatic religious melting pot, I'll repeat that religion per se isn't the problem IMO. Humans are.
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  #312  
Old 21.01.2011, 17:44
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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I really don't mean to offend anyone...
Best line you've come out with yet!

If that's really your intent, you need to try harder.
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Old 21.01.2011, 17:47
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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I'm more interested in how believers justify to themselves their belief in specific religious texts, traditions and practises.
I can't offer justification, that's why I've lapsed.

But I call myself a lapsed Catholic rather than a non-believer because - at some level, I suppose it's in my bones.

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Nobody as yet replied to the basic question how does one choose the 'right' side. Is it just the one of your tradition, the one you were born with - or the one you select because, for whatever reason, it makes sense to YOU.
I was born into the Catholic tradition and grew up with a child's faith. As an almost-adult the questions set in, and I eventually drifted away.

Along the road, however, there was a brief but important interlude:

I had the good fortune to study with the most admirable group of women I have ever met, bar none - six Dominican nuns at my university. These were dynamic women whose faith drove them to challenge the wrongs of the world head-on. You'll not have heard of them, they never made headlines - they were simply women who felt a call, rolled up their sleeves, and got to work at a grass-roots level: feeding the poor, caring for the sick, educating minds, standing up the the odd military junta...

These six women had a profound influence on the way I see myself, and the world.

This group of nuns were social reformers because of the message they took from the Gospels - their faith compelled them into action. They are shining examples of all that is good about the Church.

When I look at the Church, I see much that is wrong. But I have also seen that which is so very right. I have trouble reconciling aspects of the Church with my own conscience - which is I walked away. Yet I when I think about those six Dominican nuns, I cannot close the door completely.

I wish I had the same faith that the women I so admire do. Sadly, I don't. Part of me wants to find my way back. Sadly, I can't.

For now, I'll settle for keeping an open mind.

(What was the question again? )
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  #314  
Old 21.01.2011, 21:07
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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I really don't mean to offend anyone, least of you, but it's not interesting at all, which I'm sure you know. You're being rhetorical. That is exactly how they justify it, by saying "i believe." It cannot be justified. They simply don't think about it out of sheer stubbornness, or are ill-equipped to do so through lack of education or intellect.

But you do highlight a very important point, which I put in bold. This in itself wouldn't be a problem, but these people can vote. This is the whole issue. Atheists aren't "all up in arms" or whatever, or at least not over nothing. It's because these irrational beliefs have consequences for all people living in a democracy. And once you accept one preposterous thing what's to stop you from living your entire life with absolutely no rational criteria for forming beliefs. This is exasperated by the fact that it's mostly the religious people who end up voting (i believe 85% of us evangelicals vote, versus what? 49% average? And their pastors tell them who or what to vote for). This makes them dangerous lemmings. Plus the electoral college favours red states (which is where these evangelicals are found), giving them more votes per capita than high population blue states. And ironically the "normal" people, including also those with some kind of benign, non-harmful belief, tend to be apathetic and don't participate. One can argue that the solution then would be to mobilize these people, which is fair enough, but that's difficult, for obvious reasons (they're apathetic), and it's unfair to have to resort to that when the real problem is caused by stone age nonsense.

Even if all religion were of the benign kind - by that I just mean that where people have been at least smart enough to discard harmful stuff like gender inequality, homophobia, the "right to life" crap, etc, while still maintaining some vague, wishy washy christianity - it's still sinister since it's principally a method of social control. In Europe these religions even get tax money. Pretty much everywhere they get generous tax deductions. Even Scientology, if i'm not mistaken. Granted most do a lot of good with the money they raise.
Oh Ah! This kind of speech is an absolut disgrace! You should be ashame of yourself! And you call yourself open mind? You think of yourself as someone who is respectful of others?
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Old 21.01.2011, 21:20
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Oh Ah! This kind of speech is an absolut disgrace! You should be ashame of yourself! And you call yourself open mind? You think of yourself as someone who is respectful of others?
I thought it was quite funny, myself.

I've been led to believe that Daboy puts tomatoes in his fruit salad, by the way...
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Old 21.01.2011, 21:35
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

I'm sorry I'd missed this earlier 'growing up in a traumatic melting-pot' - the funniest I've heard in a very long time. It was certainly traumatic for many of them at the time - but for me it was not and as said before 'freed' me from mindless tradition, and I am incredibly grateful for it.

Kohlberg's theory of the acquisition of morality, going through a series of steps/events, is really worth a read.
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Old 21.01.2011, 21:42
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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I thought it was quite funny, myself.

I've been led to believe that Daboy puts tomatoes in his fruit salad, by the way...
The problem is that he doesn't have what it takes to be cynical or sarcastic in a funny way, sadly it is just what it is... and this is why he has rotten tomatoes in his fruit salad.
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Old 21.01.2011, 21:47
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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The problem is that he doesn't have what it takes to be cynical or sarcastic in a funny way, sadly it is just what it is... and this is why he has rotten tomatoes in his fruit salad.
They're just opinions, Nil. Opinions from some bloke who has just moved to Switzerland.

Why are you letting it get to you?
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Old 21.01.2011, 21:52
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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They're just opinions, Nil. Opinions from some bloke who has just moved to Switzerland.

Why are you letting it get to you?
I am not.... not on a personal level actually. I don't believe that everything is good to say... But like we say in french:

Le chat est sorti du sac (The cat is out of the bag) Which brings me to what you said once, it is better to know clearly what other people think and know their intention than not knowing enough...

But it doesn't change the fact that I still find it disgraceful.
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Old 21.01.2011, 22:40
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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There is no excuse for using the "main" religions to justify aggression against another. So while you and your OH's families may have grown up in a traumatic religious melting pot, I'll repeat that religion per se isn't the problem IMO. Humans are.

So if religions existed without people there would not be a problem? How would that work?

Interesting article here about the breakup of Yugoslavia in the early Nineties & "was it a religious war"
This article, see link, comes down on the side of "it was a religious war" as is currently taught in Serbian schools but you can find plenty of other articles with a different view
http://www.religioustolerance.org/war_koso.htm

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