Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #321  
Old 21.01.2011, 23:43
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

I can't think, off the top of my head, of a single war that was motivated by religion.

On the other hand, religious divisions have often tended to fall along fault lines which have already been established by geopolitical concerns.

Just ask any Greek (or Italian, or Syrian, or Iranian)...
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #322  
Old 22.01.2011, 01:19
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 11,599
Groaned at 568 Times in 482 Posts
Thanked 20,824 Times in 10,940 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

Quote:
I can't think, off the top of my head, of a single war that was motivated by religion.

On the other hand, religious divisions have often tended to fall along fault lines which have already been established by geopolitical concerns.

Just ask any Greek (or Italian, or Syrian, or Iranian)...
Muslim Conquests
200 years of Crusades
The French wars of Religion
Thirty Years War
Yugoslavia in the 90s
Reply With Quote
  #323  
Old 22.01.2011, 01:25
WhySoSerious?'s Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: ZH
Posts: 138
Groaned at 17 Times in 13 Posts
Thanked 108 Times in 56 Posts
WhySoSerious? has become a little unpopular
Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

Quote:
I can't think, off the top of my head, of a single war that was motivated by religion.

On the other hand, religious divisions have often tended to fall along fault lines which have already been established by geopolitical concerns.

Just ask any Greek (or Italian, or Syrian, or Iranian)...
Or maybe socio political divisions tend to fall along already well established religious fault lines?
Reply With Quote
  #324  
Old 22.01.2011, 01:49
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

Quote:
View Post
Or maybe socio political divisions tend to fall along already well established religious fault lines?
Nah. The three way split between the Greeks (and, by extension, Russia), the Roman west (including the Protestant world) and those dodgy Persians and Semites of the Middle East predates the dominance of Christianity and the rise of Islam by centuries, for example. Northern Ireland has more to do with colonialism and nationalism than religion. It's no coincidence that Iran is mosly Shia while Arabs are mostly Sunni.

And so on, now and forever...
Reply With Quote
  #325  
Old 22.01.2011, 01:54
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

Quote:
View Post
Muslim Conquests
200 years of Crusades
The French wars of Religion
Thirty Years War
Yugoslavia in the 90s
I don't know much about Western European history, so I can't comment on either the French wars or the Thirty Years War, but none of the other ones were really about religion.

Especially not the Crusades.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #326  
Old 22.01.2011, 12:24
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 11,599
Groaned at 568 Times in 482 Posts
Thanked 20,824 Times in 10,940 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

Quote:
I don't know much about Western European history, so I can't comment on either the French wars or the Thirty Years War, but none of the other ones were really about religion.

Especially not the Crusades.
About "I don't know much about Western European history"

What other history is there?
Reply With Quote
  #327  
Old 22.01.2011, 12:27
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

Quote:
View Post
About "I don't know much about Western European history"

What other history is there?
All the history from civilised parts of the world.

Who wants to read about hairy barbarian kings and their pretensions to empire?

Give me Suleyman the Magnificent over Henry VIII any day of the week...
Reply With Quote
  #328  
Old 22.01.2011, 14:31
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 11,599
Groaned at 568 Times in 482 Posts
Thanked 20,824 Times in 10,940 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

Quote:
Give me Suleyman the Magnificent over Henry VIII any day of the week...
Now that is a mental image I can do without
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank marton for this useful post:
  #329  
Old 22.01.2011, 15:12
jacek's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Aargau
Posts: 8,855
Groaned at 125 Times in 92 Posts
Thanked 6,571 Times in 3,638 Posts
jacek has a reputation beyond reputejacek has a reputation beyond reputejacek has a reputation beyond reputejacek has a reputation beyond reputejacek has a reputation beyond reputejacek has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

After reading this long thread have the EF crowd already decided on the right path to Santihood? What was the topic?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank jacek for this useful post:
  #330  
Old 22.01.2011, 15:56
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 11,599
Groaned at 568 Times in 482 Posts
Thanked 20,824 Times in 10,940 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

Quote:
View Post
After reading this long thread have the EF crowd already decided on the right path to Santihood? What was the topic?
the right path to Santihood?

Santa Clause's winter wear? Buy it in Eddie Bauer.

What was the topic?

Topic? What is that?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank marton for this useful post:
  #331  
Old 22.01.2011, 16:27
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Solothurn
Posts: 725
Groaned at 88 Times in 55 Posts
Thanked 645 Times in 325 Posts
Enaj has a reputation beyond reputeEnaj has a reputation beyond reputeEnaj has a reputation beyond reputeEnaj has a reputation beyond reputeEnaj has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

Quote:
religious influence of one kind or another- and that is of great concerns because it stops us going forwards, .

And my children who went to a village school in the UK had no choice but to go to a CofE school - they were regularly taught by the local Vicar. 'Of course you've been baptized- your parents would not be so cruel not to, as you would not be able to enter the Kingdom of Heaven if you died'. How do you explain THAT to a child who wakes up in tears night after night, terrified!
Would like to ask what you actually mean by going forwards?

Personally, I am of the opinion that the only way forwards for the whole human race and for each and every indiviual is spiritually. The religions are there and in place as a starting point and orientation help for the person who is truly seeking and is prepared to "dig deep".

I am glad of the morning assemblies and basics in christianity we had at school in the early years and some of the moral lessons learned there have remained with me a lifetime. By the way, I would have preferred if they had dropped mathematics from the school curriculum rather than religious education as I had nightmares about algebra and woke up crying because of the maths teacher. And no-one has successfully ever been able to explain algebra to me either!
Reply With Quote
  #332  
Old 22.01.2011, 16:52
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Solothurn
Posts: 725
Groaned at 88 Times in 55 Posts
Thanked 645 Times in 325 Posts
Enaj has a reputation beyond reputeEnaj has a reputation beyond reputeEnaj has a reputation beyond reputeEnaj has a reputation beyond reputeEnaj has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

[QUOTE]Some of us grew with several religious 'traditions' that were at each other's throats, even though they worshipped the same God.

In my and my OH's family in the past few generations
Catholics
Protestants
Huguenots
Dutch Reformed Church
Methodists
Nuslims
Atheists
Humanists

Just with the first two - which is the 'right' side. Easier now in modern CH (a big oecumenical service at our Church on Sunday) but more difficult even in UK, and especially in Ireland. But in the 40s and 50s, it was a very different story. And not much before that, it was burning and torture in the name of the same God Now the 'enemy' is elsewhere (mind you the Crusades and the Inquisition were not much fun either). Nobody as yet replied to the basic question how does one choose the 'right' side. Is it just the one of your tradition, the one you were born with - or the one you select because, for whatever reason, it makes sense to YOU. Never been a follower or a sheep - so if I chose one side, tradition and heritage would not be the reason.

As Dave Allen said 'may YOUR God go with you'- but please respect my decision to go with neither.[/QUOTE

It has been said that the religion you were born into is the one you were meant to be in. So there's the starting point. When you've researched your own religion, start researching the others. With time and an open mind you will come to realise that all the religions say more or less the same only using different language as the same message has been revealed to different peoples at different times. Eventually you come to the conclusion you don't need to belong to or adhere to any form of outer religion, but religion is something entirely personal based on an expansion of consciousness and our daily life becomes our temple and our religion and has nothing to do with the church, mosque or temple we belong to. You DO, however, have to do a lot of homework and work on the self to reach this point
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Enaj for this useful post:
  #333  
Old 22.01.2011, 18:55
Leni's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Sunny Solothurn
Posts: 942
Groaned at 8 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 765 Times in 406 Posts
Leni has a reputation beyond reputeLeni has a reputation beyond reputeLeni has a reputation beyond reputeLeni has a reputation beyond reputeLeni has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

This is the longest-running thread I have ever started!!
Well, except for "The thinking woman's crumpet", but that was a while back and not nearly so worthy........

Thank you for the very interesting discussion.
Reply With Quote
  #334  
Old 23.01.2011, 15:45
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Zurich
Posts: 168
Groaned at 36 Times in 19 Posts
Thanked 78 Times in 50 Posts
daboy is considered unworthydaboy is considered unworthydaboy is considered unworthydaboy is considered unworthy
Quote:
They're just opinions, Nil. Opinions from some bloke who has just moved to Switzerland.

Why are you letting it get to you?
So where does opinion end? Is it your opinion that you are british? Is it your opinion that you aren't, say, american? Or dutch? You have evidence that you are british, but none, of course, to prove that you are not dutch. You cannot prove negatives, but you can say that there isnt any evidence, and in ordinary conversation state emphatically that you are not dutch, or american, even though you logically could be. I think there was only one opinion in my previous post, when i called religion " stone age nonsense." So change that to myth and it's opinion free.

Sent from my ZTE-BLADE using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #335  
Old 23.01.2011, 16:25
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: At home
Posts: 4,167
Groaned at 208 Times in 133 Posts
Thanked 6,403 Times in 2,719 Posts
Faltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

As a linguist, I take great care in definitions:

- If a war of religion is a war in which a given group make war to another group in order to convert them after winning the military battle, then there are no war of religion.

- If a war of religion is a war in which a given group make war to another group in order to defend a wordly power that would be or has been challanged by the other group, then there are only rare examples.

- If a war of religion is a war in which a given group uses religion as a tool to gather people in order to conduct a war against another group in order to gain on political level or territorial benefits, then there are quite a few examples.

- If a war of religion is a war in which religious rhorics is used in order to justify a fight against another group of people in order to defend power structures in place, then there are many examples.

But in any case, Yougoslavia does not belong to that list.
__________________
Es wird nichts ausgelassen, um mich hier herauszuekeln. Ein Lehrbuch. False accusations and attacks continue. There is no stopping righteous people when they are wrong.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Faltrad for this useful post:
  #336  
Old 23.01.2011, 16:25
MusicChick's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: La Cote
Posts: 17,488
Groaned at 414 Times in 275 Posts
Thanked 20,428 Times in 10,577 Posts
MusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

Quote:
View Post
Not a good comparison with football! The sport heirarchy actually condemn fan violence, support police efforts to stop it & fine clubs where it happens.
Whereas the religious heirarchy are quiet on this topic; there is usually significant effort to enforce commandment 7 "thou shalt not commit adultury" but no enforcement of commandment 6 "You shall not murder" when their followers start killing followers of other religions.
I find the sport analogy actually pretty ok, since it is officially also not accepted to foul, to play rough, ets. Think fair play, right? I am thinking about how different all sorts of teams are, in terms of this. Fouls are taught, rough play as well, by the representatives. It's all accepted, to certain degree. The policy might be one thing, how is the actual game played another. Think European hockey (minus the Russian one) vs Yank hockey. Religious groups don't mostly also get off by "let's wipe them off the Earth" mantra. It's humans, that do crap stuff. Not the concept of faith. We all adhere to morality in different degree, there is nothing on Earth that would make us all equally moral. It is unrealistic to expect it. It is not the fault of faith, though.

Quote:

Kohlberg's theory of the acquisition of morality, going through a series of steps/events, is really worth a read.
Kohlberg is fun, I have quoted him here before. It's my fav read, with Ericson, Piaget, Maslow, etc. It's not the word to not be questioned, though. And he was, by his female student, since she brought difference in social behavior and priorities development, linked to gender. If I remember well, she pointed out that most of his "experiment and research material" were males. It's still a wonderful piece of work.

Quote:
View Post
Muslim Conquests
200 years of Crusades
The French wars of Religion
Thirty Years War
Yugoslavia in the 90s
I also don't think those were primarily about religion. Especially 30yr war that happened in my country's territory, can't really speak for the other ones. It was about power. The religious hired soldiers at the end did not represented any church, they made their own to justify killing, stealing and other things they were doing in order to get by or get more power. I wouldn't blame the mess back then on faith, but on a vacuum and lack of correct leadership, that allowed humans' dark side take over.

Quote:
View Post
Would like to ask what you actually mean by going forwards?

Personally, I am of the opinion that the only way forwards for the whole human race and for each and every individual is spiritually. The religions are there and in place as a starting point and orientation help for the person who is truly seeking and is prepared to "dig deep".

I am glad of the morning assemblies and basics in christianity we had at school in the early years and some of the moral lessons learned there have remained with me a lifetime. By the way, I would have preferred if they had dropped mathematics from the school curriculum rather than religious education as I had nightmares about algebra and woke up crying because of the maths teacher. And no-one has successfully ever been able to explain algebra to me either!
I also agree that spirituality might be what is going to save us, at the end.

I am really trying to let my child decide what she wants in terms of theories on life and faith. Coming from uniquely atheist place and living in a religious culture, it is a little confusing. Plus I found out not long ago we are probably Jewish since my family had to hide this fact in the past in order to survive. It's nice here, though, since faith is not rubbed in anyone's face. Nor are religious folks laughed at, nor are atheists too smug, etc.

I was asked today, though, since we were listening to church bells, to take our child to church, to show her and tell her. She knows that churches are special places, she saw the little Jesus in the nursery and on postscards (he brings us xmas presents in my culture, weirdly enough, she likes baby dolls so she of course likes the baby Jesus that was all over the place at xmas time), she knows what bells are and that they mean people meet up for mass and she thinks they have fun. I told her there is a little school where kids play and listen to fairy tales about faith. She seems intrigued and since she is an only child she longs for places where people hang and share something in common. I don't really care about saints, JPII and if I am religious or not, when I am thinking about raising my child. I do think, though, that raising her with respect and mainly knowledge and open attitude to all different faiths and churches, so one day she can make an educated decision on her own. Info is important. I want to teach her how to get her own info, to have her own opinion. If she does not have info, she will most likely just refuse, or follow sheep style. If she learns to laugh at other people's spiritual system, she won't probably let them share with her why they follow what they follow.

Now, if I had a very rejecting mindset, I am not sure if that would help my child grow up and be able to choose on her own, if she likes, accepts faith or decides to be an atheist, or if some spirituality in her life is important to her. I think talking certain way about symbols that are important to churches, like pope, is going to condition her majorly. I respect my students, I try to tell them the most I can, with a respect to things that matter to other people. I respect my kid, so I try not to condition her one way or another. Maybe it is a naive mindset. While I have my own thoughts about the matter, I don't think that is always the most important thing.
__________________
"L'homme ne peut pas remplacer son coeur avec sa tete, ni sa tete avec ses mains." J.H. Pestalozzi

“The only difference between a rut and a grave is a matter of depth.” S.P. Cadman

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." A. Einstein

Last edited by MusicChick; 23.01.2011 at 19:46.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank MusicChick for this useful post:
  #337  
Old 23.01.2011, 17:08
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Zurich
Posts: 168
Groaned at 36 Times in 19 Posts
Thanked 78 Times in 50 Posts
daboy is considered unworthydaboy is considered unworthydaboy is considered unworthydaboy is considered unworthy
Lol. Going forwards by going backwards. I don't know how to thank on tapatalk, but i like that idea. It's my personal life philosophy. But i think the world should probably go forwards. I mean, why not.

Sent from my ZTE-BLADE using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #338  
Old 23.01.2011, 17:28
Carlos R's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Roundn'about Basel
Posts: 7,232
Groaned at 105 Times in 95 Posts
Thanked 9,934 Times in 4,178 Posts
Carlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

Quote:
View Post
Quote:
View Post
There is no excuse for using the "main" religions to justify aggression against another. So while you and your OH's families may have grown up in a traumatic religious melting pot, I'll repeat that religion per se isn't the problem IMO. Humans are.

So if religions existed without people there would not be a problem? How would that work?


That's completely irrelevant to the point I am making, which is: religious texts preach tolerance and compassion for fellow Man. It is when Man decides that all other peoples should follow their line of thinking - whether on religious grounds or not for that matter - that trouble and strife breaks out.
Reply With Quote
  #339  
Old 23.01.2011, 23:55
Ouchboy's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Baden
Posts: 3,324
Groaned at 58 Times in 47 Posts
Thanked 5,642 Times in 2,146 Posts
Ouchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

Quote:
View Post


That's completely irrelevant to the point I am making, which is: religious texts preach tolerance and compassion for fellow Man. It is when Man decides that all other peoples should follow their line of thinking - whether on religious grounds or not for that matter - that trouble and strife breaks out.
and when the LORD thy God delivereth it into thine hand, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:

yup Lots Of Love... or LOL
Reply With Quote
  #340  
Old 24.01.2011, 10:49
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: OOO
Posts: 3,724
Groaned at 79 Times in 55 Posts
Thanked 1,683 Times in 1,017 Posts
Sada has a reputation beyond reputeSada has a reputation beyond reputeSada has a reputation beyond reputeSada has a reputation beyond reputeSada has a reputation beyond reputeSada has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

I think there are 2-3 top topics on the EF
with never ending threads,
anything slightly religious is one of them ...

Quote:
View Post
This is the longest-running thread I have ever started!!
Well, except for "The thinking woman's crumpet", but that was a while back and not nearly so worthy........

Thank you for the very interesting discussion.
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Pope Visiting the UK - What would YOU yell at him? PlantHead International affairs/politics 29 25.02.2011 11:55
'Arrest The Pope' cries Richard Dawkins Castro International affairs/politics 127 14.04.2010 18:27
Pope stands firm against condoms in... Africa Russkov International affairs/politics 6 18.03.2009 16:41
Track in Bern? runner0579 Sports / Fitness / Beauty / Wellness 4 06.01.2009 12:23


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 06:02.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0