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  #341  
Old 24.01.2011, 10:24
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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and when the LORD thy God delivereth it into thine hand, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:

yup Lots Of Love... or LOL
Man alive. You really are being facetious on this one aren't you.

If you are going to quote, at least give the source. Presumably this comes from the Bible vs. RC (what else?) doctrine.

Last time I looked out the window, I didn't see many "normal" Christians doing much smiting...
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  #342  
Old 24.01.2011, 10:45
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Man alive. You really are being facetious on this one aren't you.

If you are going to quote, at least give the source. Presumably this comes from the Bible vs. RC (what else?) doctrine.

Last time I looked out the window, I didn't see many "normal" Christians doing much smiting...
If you say that reiligious text PREACH love among each other, you should be able to back it up. not generalize.

It's in the bible, and there's plenty more where that one came from.

last time you looked out the window you saw normal christians, not religious text, did you??

It sems to me when it's convenient to you, you say it's text, when it's not you say it's christians.

make up your mind.

Also, it's deuteronomy.
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  #343  
Old 24.01.2011, 11:06
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Would like to ask what you actually mean by going forwards?

Personally, I am of the opinion that the only way forwards for the whole human race and for each and every indiviual is spiritually.
Yup, that's why when spirituality was valued more than ever and had the most power, people were dying in their castles at 30.
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  #344  
Old 24.01.2011, 11:29
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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If you say that reiligious text PREACH love among each other, you should be able to back it up. not generalize.
In a previous post, I quoted basic beliefs about tolerance across the major religious groups. If you think they are specifically wrong, go back and correct me.

I have, several times, stated/admitted/whatever that there are religious nutjobs. If it makes you feel better, I am sorry about that. I shall whip myself extra hard tonight in penitence as I pray...

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It's in the bible, and there's plenty more where that one came from.
And the record repeats itself again, and again, and again, and again...

Ya, und? The point I have consistently made, and will make again, is that current mainstream religious faiths all teach and promote tolerance towards fellow Man in their interpretation of how to live your life today in the modern world. If you want proof go to any mainstream church, mosque or synagogue. I don't feel I need to prove this.

There are extremists in this world across all walks of life across the whole of society. So don't try to come across as "all holier than thou" and pin this one on religion alone.

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last time you looked out the window you saw normal christians, not religious text, did you??
You struggle with figurative and literal speech don't you. When I look out of my window at the moment, I see a courtyard and no one is in it - there are no people, no books. There are some bicycles, a motorbike and moped. Occasionally someone walks by.

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It sems to me when it's convenient to you, you say it's text, when it's not you say it's christians.

make up your mind.
I really don't see what your problem is.

I believe that mainstream religions promote tolerance in day-to-day life. I've said this, oooh, at least of couple of times.

You, and others: "Yeah but the bible says X, Y, Z, there are religious wars etc..."

I've already said that I don't believe that the bible and such *ahem* historical texts should be taken literally. I have also said that I believe that for Christians especially, the NT should carry much more weight that the OT (cue Ouchboy grabbing his well-thumbed bible and searching for equivalent texts in NT ) in terms of how one should lead one's life. I've never in 30+ years come across a priest promoting war or violence when attending a service.

Others - in a better position than me to know - have also suggested that "religious wars" are maybe not so religious after all, although, as Faltrad pointed out, the "dumb masses" who actually gave their lives in such wars probably bought into the whole martyrdom/fighting for your faith thing.

But I digress.

I've made up my mind. I also think that I've been fairly consistent throughout and tried to be honest in my replies. I don't see what it is that you find so confusing, where I've been inconsistent or, for that matter, why you think I haven't made up my mind.
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  #345  
Old 24.01.2011, 11:39
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Others - in a better position than me to know - have also suggested that "religious wars" are maybe not so religious after all, although, as Faltrad pointed out, the "dumb masses" who actually gave their lives in such wars probably bought into the whole martyrdom/fighting for your faith thing.
When it comes to wars, it's often stated that it's never, or rarely the religion, but people who cause them.

I would say it's the same for the good stuff religion may have done too, and has resulted in the feel good religion we have now, where you can ignore all the bad stuff in sacred books because that's not "the real message".

I could say that religion as a force for good now, in the words of a previous poster, is because religious rhetoric is used by good people to persuade other people to do good things.

I think many of the posters are asking, why do you ascribe it to bad people when religion is involved in bad things, then praise the religion and not the people when it does good.
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  #346  
Old 24.01.2011, 11:42
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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I think many of the posters are asking, why do you ascribe it to bad people when religion is involved in bad things, then praise the religion and not the people when it does good.
^^^^^this!

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You struggle with figurative and literal speech don't you. When I look out of my window at the moment, I see a courtyard and no one is in it - there are no people, no books. There are some bicycles, a motorbike and moped. Occasionally someone walks by.
And you seem to struggle with metaphors I guess. When I say that you see religious text, is because you first state Texts preaching and then people/religious beliefs. People != text.

as cyrus stated, you seem to point to different things depending on the case.

Last edited by Ouchboy; 24.01.2011 at 11:53.
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  #347  
Old 24.01.2011, 12:41
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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I think many of the posters are asking, why do you ascribe it to bad people when religion is involved in bad things, then praise the religion and not the people when it does good.


Unfortunately, I don't think I will answer adequately enough for you. But let's be honest here, no one is really that interested in accepting what I have to say about my beliefs.

Basically because I believe in the tolerance side of things. It is my interpretation of what I've been taught and researched for myself. If I look at the Gospels, the Acts (of the Apostles) and letters, they are all about compassion and love of fellow Man (when on that topic). These to me are the cornerstone of RC belief (i.e. in terms of "proof" or "guidance", rather than the "beliefs" themselves).

Ouchboy, find me a piece in these NT books about smiting fellow Man.

I accept the criticism that this is very RC-centric, but the fact that we can have so many people living side-by-side with really no issues suggests that the mainstream religions accept that this can be the case too.

If you look at the extremists amongst religious groups, beyond the person who is leading them, my perception is generally of poorly educated people, easily whipped up into a frenzy over something they know little about - think Danish cartoons.

With that marvellous thing, hindsight, one can see that there are many people throughout the ages who've used propaganda to subvert - if that's the right word - religious groupings to meet their needs - think Spanish Inquisition. The RC Church, before it became the behemoth it now is, was about small groups of people coming together to pray and seek a peaceful life/salvation for their souls. Who knew years later that it would have things like the Medieval Inquisition?

Two very simple examples, but serve to illustrate the differences in interpretation from the same basic beliefs and tenets. Interpretations by Man.

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When I say that you see religious text, is because you first state Texts preaching and then people/religious beliefs. People != text.
Is what I wrote so unclear? Of course I did not mean to say that texts are people preaching. But if you want to take the discussion to that level of obdurateness, you can do so without me.

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...as Cyrus stated, you seem to point to different things depending on the case.
Correct, and I believe I do so consistently. Given that life is never black and white, I thought you'd be pleased with the consistency.
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  #348  
Old 24.01.2011, 16:16
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Ouchboy, find me a piece in these NT books about smiting fellow Man.
Note the context. yu say it teaches tolerance and compassion. as said vvvv

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religious texts preach tolerance and compassion for fellow Man.
too wich I replied with OT.
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and when the LORD thy God delivereth it into thine hand, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:
yup Lots Of Love... or LOL
Out of the bat I can tell you that Romans 1 deem gay "Worthy of death". even if it's not them, it's someone... but then again, you can stretch interpretation as long as you want/can.

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If you look at the extremists amongst religious groups, beyond the person who is leading them, my perception is generally of poorly educated people, easily whipped up into a frenzy over something they know little about - think Danish cartoons.
Yes exactly, think about it- condoms in Africa. Difference is these are people's life, and I would not think that people on the receiveng end of these teachings or the ones teaching them are extremists.


I won't knock you , for having your beliefs, I thing that's "sacred" (as in freedom of speech is sacred, not church or whatever) as I have mine.

It is the hold that the catholic church has to this day and the implications that it has. You really need to weight in on what overall religion beliefs systems do and how they hinder society. Also, it seems to me that the reason so many religions tend to get along right now, it's the separation of Church-State, reduced the income of "religious" motivated wars, yet still there is a huge backup of religious politics on some, even through the XX century ( Libertarian theology in Central America for example)

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Correct, and I believe I do so consistently. Given that life is never black and white, I thought you'd be pleased with the consistency.
You can do so, Thanks for sparing the thought on what pleases me. Point being that as long as you say that the bible is interpretative (which is valid) then, you are in relativistic grounds (which you have accepted) but cannot then say that ALL texts teach tolerance and compassion (other than your interpretation that would be , I guess)


On the topic of sainthood:
Last century (XX) Thomas More was made a Saint, and in 2000 he was made patron saint of politics. Without going into the bashing or alleged bashing of protestants regarding torture, people were burned under his chancellorschip for owning bibles in english.

At the end you'll think what i want and I'll think what I want.

[/rant]

P.S as far as I know the position on POPE is only on RC. therefore the criticism is very much based on them.
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Last edited by Ouchboy; 24.01.2011 at 16:54. Reason: clarified some points
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  #349  
Old 24.01.2011, 17:04
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Yes exactly, think about it- condoms in Africa. Difference is these are people's life, and I would not think that people on the receiveng end of these teachings or the ones teaching them are extremists.
Funnily enough, the ex pope is getting his honour for curing a nun of Parkinson's Disease.

Efforts into a real cure for Parkinsons are hindered by opponents of stem cell research, the Catholic church being one of those opponents.
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  #350  
Old 24.01.2011, 21:57
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

If the Roman Catholic church is all about understanding and tolerance, why are homosexual acts still considered sinful?
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  #351  
Old 24.01.2011, 21:59
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

Last two posts - good ones.
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  #352  
Old 24.01.2011, 22:03
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Last two posts - good ones.
so mine wasn't?? fail
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  #353  
Old 24.01.2011, 22:12
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

I don't know about you chaps, but I'm still trying to work out what this is all about:

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So where does opinion end? Is it your opinion that you are british? Is it your opinion that you aren't, say, american? Or dutch? You have evidence that you are british, but none, of course, to prove that you are not dutch. You cannot prove negatives, but you can say that there isnt any evidence, and in ordinary conversation state emphatically that you are not dutch, or american, even though you logically could be. I think there was only one opinion in my previous post, when i called religion " stone age nonsense." So change that to myth and it's opinion free.



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  #354  
Old 24.01.2011, 23:53
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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I don't know about you chaps, but I'm still trying to work out what this is all about:






It should be quite clear. You can't just call something an opinion just because you want to stay deluded. Not all propositions are opinions. Understand? It's easy-mode.
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  #355  
Old 25.01.2011, 00:09
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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It should be quite clear. You can't just call something an opinion just because you want to stay deluded. Not all propositions are opinions. Understand? It's easy-mode.
Sorry, old chap. I'm a bit thick, you see, what with being a Christian and all. It's a good job I'm not allowed to vote, isn't it?

Perhaps you could see your way to extending some sympathy towards me for my meagre intellectual capabilities?

Or buy me a pint down the Viadukt.

One or the other.
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  #356  
Old 25.01.2011, 06:14
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Sorry, old chap. I'm a bit thick, you see, what with being a Christian and all. It's a good job I'm not allowed to vote, isn't it?

Perhaps you could see your way to extending some sympathy towards me for my meagre intellectual capabilities?

Or buy me a pint down the Viadukt.
One or the other.
Cmon! Where does opinion end for you? Do you disagree that not all propositions are opinions. Are you some kind of relativist? This is an accurate representation of what's going on here, with a role reversal and a non emotional topic.

me: "Are you American?"
db: "No I am not."
me: "you can't prove that you aren't american."
db: "well i can prove that i wasn't born there."
me: "no you can't."
db: "i can prove that i was born at x place, which isn't america, and circumstantially that it would have been impossible to have naturalized.
me: the documents related to your birth could be a ruse perpetuated by your parents and the government. It's at least logically possible for you to be American."
db: "Sigh. Fine, it's possible, but I know of no evidence to support the proposition that i am American."
me: "Well that's your opinion, and you are entitled to that." Or, actually, no, "i'm still trying to figure out what you are on about... Give me sympathy or buy me a drink at the viadukt."

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  #357  
Old 25.01.2011, 06:22
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

So, are you going to buy me a pint or what?
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Old 25.01.2011, 06:50
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Not all propositions are opinions.
Of course, what you've said here is merely your opinion, not a proposition.
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  #359  
Old 25.01.2011, 09:05
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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This is the longest-running thread I have ever started!!
Well, except for "The thinking woman's crumpet", but that was a while back and not nearly so worthy........
.
A rose by any other name would still be a rose I suppose?
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  #360  
Old 25.01.2011, 10:43
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Do you really need to ask? Have a little faith, doug.
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