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  #361  
Old 25.01.2011, 11:49
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Cmon! Where does opinion end for you? Do you disagree that not all propositions are opinions. Are you some kind of relativist? This is an accurate representation of what's going on here, with a role reversal and a non emotional topic.

me: "Are you American?"
db: "No I am not."
me: "you can't prove that you aren't american."
db: "well i can prove that i wasn't born there."
me: "no you can't."
db: "i can prove that i was born at x place, which isn't america, and circumstantially that it would have been impossible to have naturalized.
me: the documents related to your birth could be a ruse perpetuated by your parents and the government. It's at least logically possible for you to be American."
db: "Sigh. Fine, it's possible, but I know of no evidence to support the proposition that i am American."
me: "Well that's your opinion, and you are entitled to that." Or, actually, no, "i'm still trying to figure out what you are on about... Give me sympathy or buy me a drink at the viadukt."

A fine example of paranoid sceptical epistemology.

I'm not sure it's much use though.

The concepts of possibility and necessity although fundamental are scant use in most debates and we do have to accept certain forms of evidence at some point.

As for all the proposition/opinion stuff, didn't Logical Positivism go out of fashion in the seventies?
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  #362  
Old 25.01.2011, 12:44
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A fine example of paranoid sceptical epistemology.

I'm not sure it's much use though.

The concepts of possibility and necessity although fundamental are scant use in most debates and we do have to accept certain forms of evidence at some point.

As for all the proposition/opinion stuff, didn't Logical Positivism go out of fashion in the seventies?
You seem very confused, or else are assuming way too much and only read the dialogue and nothing before it. I am not saying people need to prove the existence of the supernatural, or suggesting that they can't. I am saying there is no evidence for it. Parts of the dialogue look like positivism, but i am not me in that dialogue (i said roles reversed). And db cant be a positivist, obviously, because he seems like an anti-realist.


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  #363  
Old 25.01.2011, 12:57
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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And db cant be a positivist, obviously, because he seems like an anti-realist.
I always wanted to be an anti-mabel, but the surgeon's fees were too high.
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  #364  
Old 25.01.2011, 13:02
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

Killer!!!!!!!!
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  #365  
Old 25.01.2011, 13:17
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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I am not saying people need to prove the existence of the supernatural, or suggesting that they can't. I am saying there is no evidence for it.
What you're actually saying is that you have no evidence of it...

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Parts of the dialogue look like positivism, but i am not me in that dialogue
...but yet you experience out-of-body periods.

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And db cant be a positivist, obviously, because he seems like an anti-realist.
So X can't have Attribute A, because X seems to have Attibute B. Very good. Very obvious. Very rigorous.


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  #366  
Old 25.01.2011, 13:58
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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You seem very confused, or else are assuming way too much and only read the dialogue and nothing before it. I am not saying people need to prove the existence of the supernatural, or suggesting that they can't. I am saying there is no evidence for it. Parts of the dialogue look like positivism, but i am not me in that dialogue (i said roles reversed). And db cant be a positivist, obviously, because he seems like an anti-realist.
I read a skimmed a couple of your posts but it was quite hard work and just picked up something about opinions and propositions and then your made-up dialogue.

My comment about Logical Positivism was because you were talking about propositions and evidence.

Are you talking about Anti-realism as expounded by Michael Dummett?

If you just want to say there's no evidence for God's existence, you seem to be going rather a long way about it.
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  #367  
Old 25.01.2011, 14:03
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If you just want to say there's no evidence for God's existence, you seem to be going rather a long way about it.
I am saying that and that it isn't an "opinion."


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  #368  
Old 25.01.2011, 14:06
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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I am saying that and that it isn't an "opinion."
You think it is a true proposition?

I don't see the formal or material distinction.
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  #369  
Old 25.01.2011, 14:08
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So X can't have Attribute A, because X seems to have Attibute B. Very good. Very obvious. Very rigorous.


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Actually it is very obvious. You just don't know what the variables mean and necessarily entail. If you really want to be pedantic about it then all i need to do is replace seems with is.

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  #370  
Old 25.01.2011, 14:08
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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I am saying that and that it isn't an "opinion."
I don't recall describing that as an opinion in the first place.

Didn't they teach basic literacy at that fancy law school you went to?

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If you really want to be pedantic about it
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Old 25.01.2011, 14:19
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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all i need to do is replace seems with is.
Ah, but you didn't. The claim ‘I could have done that’ is a very popular and misleading one, for the fact is that you didn’t, and a very significant and revealing fact it is too.

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  #372  
Old 25.01.2011, 14:21
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Actually it is very obvious. You just don't know what the variables mean and necessarily entail. If you really want to be pedantic about it then all i need to do is replace seems with is.
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So X can't have Attribute A, because X is to have Attibute B.


Nope. Still doesn't really make sense.

I think I'd probably be in broad agreement with some of what you say, but it's hard to tell at the moment.
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  #373  
Old 25.01.2011, 14:24
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Actually it is very obvious. You just don't know what the variables mean and necessarily entail. If you really want to be pedantic about it then all i need to do is replace seems with is.
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  #374  
Old 25.01.2011, 16:15
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Ah, but you didn't. The claim ‘I could have done that’ is a very popular and misleading one, for the fact is that you didn’t, and a very significant and revealing fact it is too.

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Lol. You have a good point, but it's because it's hard to edit on a mobile. I did consider changing it but it's not really that important. I didn't think anybody would notice, but i also think the intended meaning was obvious. Intent is important. I hope you believe me. Still, i apologise.

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  #375  
Old 25.01.2011, 17:01
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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It is the hold that the Catholic church has to this day and the implications that it has. You really need to weight in on what overall religion beliefs systems do and how they hinder society. Also, it seems to me that the reason so many religions tend to get along right now, it's the separation of Church-State, reduced the income of "religious" motivated wars, yet still there is a huge backup of religious politics on some, even through the XX century ( Libertarian theology in Central America for example).
Ouchboy, I've only kept this bit, but generally, you make some good points, and I can't address them all.

Re. AIDS/condoms, the concept that the Church teaches abstinence means that condoms are not needed. Clearly, this doesn't work, but there are many examples in society where the views of influential groups are out of step with others. If people stick to the guidance of the RC Church on this topic of abstinence, they would reduce the risk of getting HIV+. It is a correct piece of logic, which fails in the real world setting. But the RC Church is not responsible for the spread of AIDS in Africa.

Re your point of religious influence in politics, I couldn't agree more. I believe religious beliefs to be a private thing. I don't believe that it should influence politics.

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Funnily enough, the ex pope is getting his honour for curing a nun of Parkinson's Disease.

Efforts into a real cure for Parkinsons are hindered by opponents of stem cell research, the Catholic church being one of those opponents.
You see. Who needs stem cell research, when you can be cured via a miracle...?

But seriously, I don't agree with all the positions of the RC church. The Church's position on stem cell research is mixed, and you are refering to embryonic stem-cell research here.

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If the Roman Catholic church is all about understanding and tolerance, why are homosexual acts still considered sinful?
Understanding and tolerance is about acceptance of things that you don't agree with. It doesn't mean, however, that you should accept it as part of your beliefs, i.e. others can think that way but we don't.

But, the same applies to stem cell research. I can't really defend all the RC Church's positions. I guess that just makes me a bad RC.

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...I am not saying people need to prove the existence of the supernatural, or suggesting that they can't. I am saying there is no evidence for it...
So the flip side is that there is no evidence that it doesn't exist either. We're back on the agnostic/atheist divide that you so clearly felt wasn't important.

You've also said that anyone who does believe in God is dumb. Well rather than having a pop at anyone with a religious conviction, why don't you spend some time try to prove that God doesn't exist?

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  #376  
Old 25.01.2011, 17:12
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Understanding and tolerance is about acceptance of things that you don't agree with. It doesn't mean, however, that you should accept it as part of your beliefs, i.e. others can think that way but we don't.
We weren't arguing about your ability to understand and tolerate as an individual. We were arguing about whether Roman Catholicism promoted tolerance. If it says that the acts of a certain group in society are sinful it's clearly not. In fact, many Catholics go further than this and say that homosexuality is a threat to family life. The Roman Catholic church also has a terrible history of the way it treated unmarried mothers.

It's really not enough to enough to say "well I suppose others can do as they like" while still being told by your priest that those others will be going to hell. And how does it make those growing up in the Catholic Church feel if they have 'sinful' feelings?

You may say that you can't defend individual RC policies, but these examples stand in the way of any claim that Catholicism promotes tolerance.
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Old 25.01.2011, 17:15
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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. I can't really defend all the RC Church's positions. I guess that just makes me a bad RC.
No. It just means that the Roman Catholic church has some terrible parts to it and you should press for reform from within your institution. If there is no sign of reform, you should consider why you want to be identified with such an organisation and what conclusions people might draw from that.
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Old 25.01.2011, 18:09
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

So interesting to see how times have changed over the last few decades where some of the irreligious seem to be the pious and sanctimonius ones.

I can't help but think that some people who have dropped their beliefs of a creator or a religious institution (rather than being born and raised without them) are somehow over-compensating to feel less guillt (or whatever you want to call it).
As the great Homer Simpson once said, "If God had wanted me to go to church, he would have made the week an hour longer."
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  #379  
Old 25.01.2011, 18:12
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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No. It just means that the Roman Catholic church has some terrible parts to it and you should press for reform from within your institution. If there is no sign of reform, you should consider why you want to be identified with such an organisation and what conclusions people might draw from that.
So people should not be members of political parties either unless they agree to every component of its manifesto? Should people not vote either unless they agree with every single policy?
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  #380  
Old 25.01.2011, 18:52
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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So people should not be members of political parties either unless they agree to every component of its manifesto? Should people not vote either unless they agree with every single policy?
That's not at all what I'm saying. I am saying that some elements carry more weight than others though. If you believe that tolerance is important then intolerant policies may make you question your membership of the party.

e.g. Many people left the Labour Party because of a single issue: The Iraq War. Many people left the Anglican Church because of the ordination fo women.

I think if you remain a Catholic then you are signalling that tradition and conservatism are more important to you than tolerance. Carlos R has been trying to argue that Catholicism is a religion of tolerance, but there are clearly a few things that stand in the way of that claim.

I do recognise that there are certainly progressive elements to the religion, particularly with regard to the alleviation of poverty.
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