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Old 28.01.2011, 17:21
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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I'll argue against it, vote against it whenever the opportunity presents itself and will not join organisations which display it.
Oh, I see.

So, being "against intolerance" doesn't actually involve doing very much at all, does it?

Compared, say, to all those representatives of the Roman church who are out there in the field, providing shelter for homeless people, support for distressed people, food for hungry people, education for underprivileged people and medicines for sick people, risking injury, sickness, parasites and death, all while you are busy "arguing", "voting" and "not joining organisations" in your valiant fight against intolerance.

I've no great love for the Roman church. I think it's an outdated, bloated, ridiculously centralised misinterpretation of what a Christian church should be. But at least it does something. Something a little bit more useful than the meagre measures you suggest.

"Against intolerance"? You might as well be "against warts" or "against cloudy days".
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  #462  
Old 28.01.2011, 17:26
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Oh, I see.

So, being "against intolerance" doesn't actually involve doing very much at all, does it?

Compared, say, to all those representatives of the Roman church who are out there in the field, providing shelter for homeless people, support for distressed people, food for hungry people, education for underprivileged people and medicines for sick people, risking injury, sickness, parasites and death, all while you are busy "arguing", "voting" and "not joining organisations" in your valiant fight against intolerance.

I've no great love for the Roman church. I think it's an outdated, bloated, ridiculously centralised misinterpretation of what a Christian church should be. But at least it does something. Something a little bit more useful than the meagre measures you suggest.

As for warts and cloudy days . . . We can't do anything about the weather, people can do something about their actions though. As for warts, I think much work has been done develop treatment for these and no one is arguing to promote their spread.

Now please stop being a twit.

"Against intolerance"? You might as well be "against warts" or "against cloudy days".

FFS - I'M NOT ARGUING AGAINST THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH.

I AM RESPONDING TO CARLOS R CLAIM THAT THE CHURCH IS TOLERANT.

I even posted earlier that I recognised that the church did good work with regard to alleviating poverty. I presume that it's perfectly possible to continue helping the poor without simultaneously teaching that homosexuals will go to hell.
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  #463  
Old 28.01.2011, 17:28
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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I presume that it's perfectly possible to continue helping the poor without simultaneously teaching that homosexuals will go to hell.
You presume a lot, don't you?
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  #464  
Old 28.01.2011, 19:25
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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FFS - I'M NOT ARGUING AGAINST THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH.

I AM RESPONDING TO CARLOS R CLAIM THAT THE CHURCH IS TOLERANT.

I even posted earlier that I recognised that the church did good work with regard to alleviating poverty. I presume that it's perfectly possible to continue helping the poor without simultaneously teaching that homosexuals will go to hell.
GG you've raied some very interesting points and posed challenging questions but your tone does sound (to me at least) as though you have an axe to grind.

So do you care one way or another if another pointless saint is appointed after being associated with one miracle?
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  #465  
Old 28.01.2011, 19:45
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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So do you care one way or another if another pointless saint is appointed after being associated with one miracle?
Anyone of a religious (RC or otherwise, perhaps even non-christian) persuasion here care to venture a personal opinion as to whether they personally believe that this is indeed a miracle?

TBH, the person saved by the miracle doesn't really come across as the best witness for a beatification...
“I was sick and now I am cured; it is up to the church to say whether it was a miracle or not.”
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  #466  
Old 28.01.2011, 20:48
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I know few will pay any attention to this, but all it comes down to is this: we don't need religion to be benevolent or at least to do benevolent things. DB seems to suggest that we do. If he thinks we do, then that's at least a coherent argument, and he would be worth millions as a fox correspondent. If we don't, then all the religions are now are institutions of intolerance, since we do the good shizzle anyway, rendering the religions nothing but, well, shizzle.
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  #467  
Old 28.01.2011, 20:49
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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DB seems to suggest that we do.
No he doesn't.

What DB actually suggests is that he'd rather be preached at by a homophobic priest who caught ringworm feeding homeless people in a night shelter than by a tick-all-the-right-boxes liberal whose idea of doing good is "arguing", "voting" and "not joining organisations".
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  #468  
Old 28.01.2011, 21:14
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No he doesn't.

What DB actually suggests is that he'd rather be preached at by a homophobic priest who caught ringworm feeding homeless people in a night shelter than by a tick-all-the-right-boxes liberal whose idea of doing good is "arguing", "voting" and "not joining organisations".
I think i know that guy. Sorry to hear about the ringworm.
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Old 28.01.2011, 21:56
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

Well if only we knew half of the deeds John Paul II did. How can any of us actually judge? He gave millions the ability to go and bear their very difficult lives, he encouraged people to help others and gave the hopeless hope (is that not what religion is?) and in the world of politics he was more powerful than many people would expect, the fall of communism etc..... he was involved in many things. A friend of mine who met him thought he was very 'Popey' (just as The Queen was very queenie!) and that just about sums it up - he was the 'ideal' Pope of this era to the masses and if the Catholic Church want to make him a saint then that as they say is that and I am sure justly deserved.
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Old 28.01.2011, 22:35
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Well if only we knew half of the deeds John Paul II did. How can any of us actually judge? He gave millions the ability to go and bear their very difficult lives, he encouraged people to help others and gave the hopeless hope (is that not what religion is?) and in the world of politics he was more powerful than many people would expect, the fall of communism etc..... he was involved in many things. A friend of mine who met him thought he was very 'Popey' (just as The Queen was very queenie!) and that just about sums it up - he was the 'ideal' Pope of this era to the masses and if the Catholic Church want to make him a saint then that as they say is that and I am sure justly deserved.
Some good points. He was popular and very popey. Gave false hope to millions. Nobody can judge whether he deserves to be sainted, but he deserves to be sainted.
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Old 28.01.2011, 22:38
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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A friend of mine who met him thought he was very 'Popey'
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  #472  
Old 28.01.2011, 22:51
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

As one commentator I read put it. So what if Benedict wants to beatify JPII. Roman emperors have a long history of deifying their predecessors. It strengthens the imperial cult. Benedict is merely continuing Roman tradition.

Can we all now bow to the inevitable and move on?
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  #473  
Old 29.01.2011, 01:12
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Pope on Dark Track to Shedwood

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He turned me into a newt
You'll all be glad to hear that I just noticed that He has since turned me back from a newt, and if that ain't a miracle, nuffin' is... I will, of course, be contacting "Eggs" to add my shrill voice of support for PJPII's beatification.

BTW, our log store is empty, so if you could all pop in a prayer to PJPII for him to intercede on my behalf and move, oh let's say, 6 big ones (preferably from that big ash tree) from the big shed to our log store before I have to hike down the track in the dark with the wheelbarrow, that would surely be a miracle and would really help him strengthen his case...

TIA to all & PJP
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  #474  
Old 29.01.2011, 14:33
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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As one commentator I read put it. So what if Benedict wants to beatify JPII. Roman emperors have a long history of deifying their predecessors. It strengthens the imperial cult. Benedict is merely continuing Roman tradition.

Can we all now bow to the inevitable and move on?
Yes, maybe we should.
Thanks for the interesting thread - didn't expect it to go on (....and on and on and......) so long!!

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Old 29.01.2011, 14:40
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Anyone of a religious (RC or otherwise, perhaps even non-christian) persuasion here care to venture a personal opinion as to whether they personally believe that this is indeed a miracle[/INDENT]
Really, no takers?

A roaring silence, I have to say...
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Old 29.01.2011, 14:43
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Really, no takers?

A roaring silence, I have to say...
I think it's a load of cobblers, if that's any help.
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Old 30.01.2011, 02:00
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Re: Pope on Dark Track to Shedwood

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BTW, our log store is empty, so if you could all pop in a prayer to PJPII for him to intercede on my behalf and move, oh let's say, 6 big ones (preferably from that big ash tree) from the big shed to our log store before I have to hike down the track in the dark with the wheelbarrow, that would surely be a miracle and would really help him strengthen his case...
Sadly, the log store has remained empty and I have had to go fetch them myself. As an agnostic, I am undecided as to whether the flat tyre on the wheelbarrow was the result of divine retribution or a puncture. I shall report back when the Congregation For The Causes has completed its investigation into this bafflingly isobaric phenomenon...
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  #478  
Old 30.01.2011, 15:08
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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No he doesn't.

What DB actually suggests is that he'd rather be preached at by a homophobic priest who caught ringworm feeding homeless people in a night shelter than by a tick-all-the-right-boxes liberal whose idea of doing good is "arguing", "voting" and "not joining organisations".
But really, if DB goes to church, does he really get a preacher who caught ringworm feeding the poor, or just some guy who made it through church school preaching at him? Does DB stand up in church and ask the credentials of the preacher?

People should wonder why they voluntarily give money to an institute just because they always have, but no longer really know why, or that there doesn't seem like a better alternative.

There are plenty of organisations who can help without preaching homosexuality or safer sex is a sin (among others).

Amnesty international for one, Oxfam another, Medicin sans fronteir is another worthy one, as is UNICEF.

So you can presume that you can help without preaching some very backwards things.
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Old 30.01.2011, 15:22
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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But really, if DB goes to church, does he really get a preacher who caught ringworm feeding the poor, or just some guy who made it through church school preaching at him? Does DB stand up in church and ask the credentials of the preacher?
DB, in reality doesn't - and wouldn't - go to that kind of church in the first place.

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People should wonder why they voluntarily give money to an institute just because they always have, but no longer really know why, or that there doesn't seem like a better alternative.
I think people do think why they give money to an institution. The image of blank-eyed, submissive worshippers putting money in a basket without any idea of what it's for or where it's going doesn't match my own experiences of charity fundraising in church, or elsewhere.

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There are plenty of organisations who can help without preaching homosexuality or safer sex is a sin (among others).

Amnesty international for one, Oxfam another, Medicin sans fronteir is another worthy one, as is UNICEF.

So you can presume that you can help without preaching some very backwards things.
All very true, and I would much rather contribute to any of those organisations than the Roman church (although I'd rather contribute to local organisations than even those, but that's a whole 'nother thread). That doesn't change the fact that I consider those who "do" stuff, even if they hold loathsome opinions, to be superior to those who think that "arguing", "voting" and "not joining organisations" is any kind of way to improve the world.
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Old 30.01.2011, 15:32
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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All very true, and I would much rather contribute to any of those organisations than the Roman church (although I'd rather contribute to local organisations than even those, but that's a whole 'nother thread). That doesn't change the fact that I consider those who "do" stuff, even if they hold loathsome opinions, to be superior to those who think that "arguing", "voting" and "not joining organisations" is any kind of way to improve the world.
Arguing, voting and joining/not joining organisations has achieved a lot, formed new organisations with better goals or even changed governments.

Not sure getting credit for ones loathsomes opinion by doing charity work is nesecarily better.
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