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  #81  
Old 18.01.2011, 16:53
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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I may have a favourite football club and a favourite beer but that doesn't prevent me from being good friends with people who have a different favourite, even if on that one point we can never agree.
What would football be if you couldn't cheer your side or boo the other. Certainly there shouldn't be cause for fighting, but that doesn't mean one can't mock.
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Old 18.01.2011, 16:57
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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What would football be if you couldn't cheer your side or boo the other. Certainly there shouldn't be cause for fighting, but that doesn't mean one can't mock.
Mock a friend with a smile and a beer or mock someone by calling him stupid and dumb?

One will bring a lot of funny answers while the other one may give you a new face reconstruction.

Mocking is something you can do carefully and yes, with respect.
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Old 18.01.2011, 16:57
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

It's true, identifying oneself with one team does kinda mean for many football fans automatically negating the other, but it is mostly friendly, innit. When it ain't, we don't blame the game per se, but fanatic fans and their need to be fanatic, or society that makes people this way. It's pretty normal.

The question that interests me the most, what religion, then, offers the biggest amount of spirituality (and maybe the most honest, closest to the truth rather than dreams and illusions)? That is, what football team has the best technique and M.O.for its players. Fair, user friendly, honest, attainable, available, etc...
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Old 18.01.2011, 16:59
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Mock a friend with a smile and a beer or mock someone by calling him stupid and dumb?

One will bring a lot of funny answers while the other one may give you a new face reconstruction.

Mocking is something you can do carefully and yes, with respect.
well Nil, how about If I, from the other team, point out that some of the rules, and strategies of the team are overall outdated, inappropriate or internally incoherent

what reaction would I get from that?
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  #85  
Old 18.01.2011, 17:00
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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well Nil, how about that some of the rules, and strategies of the team are overall outdated, inappropriate or internally incoherent

what reaction would I get from that?
You can hope (and pray ) for some updating!
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Old 18.01.2011, 17:03
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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That is so. But you can believe that you are right and by extension that the other is deluded but by choice not hark on about that but instead seek a constructive dialogue that focuses on things that unite rather than things that divide.

I may have a favourite football club and a favourite beer but that doesn't prevent me from being good friends with people who have a different favourite, even if on that one point we can never agree.
Except that religious people disagree with rational people about reality. This isn't the same as having a beverage preference. Preferences about reality can have harmful consequences because we theoretically are supposed to participate in government.
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Old 18.01.2011, 17:05
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Except that religious people disagree with rational people about reality. This isn't the same as having a beverage preference. Preferences about reality can have harmful consequences because we theoretically are supposed to participate in government.
But what reality? Which reality? Who said that rational people own it? Where they got it and from who or where?
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Old 18.01.2011, 17:07
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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I am not so sure. I might be naive but maybe I give people more credit. All of the die hard catholics I know actually adhere to the dogma to a different degree, most of all make their own plan and just get the spirituality from religion, especially those who miss it in our normal "faithless" life. All the usual cliches, ie unprotected sex without a condom, etc are mostly a question of being dumb, irrespectively of religion. Something tells me people doing stupid stuff in the name of faith would be doing stupid stuff anyways. There are a bunch of not so intelligent proposals for people to follow, does not have to be religion. Those followers look for leadership, no matter who what and when, it is probably a question of catholicism or christianity being available and traditionally present, that make the followers follow that specific church and take the orders to the minute details. It sounds offensive, but I mean the opposite. I wouldn't blame faith for some personal mishaps, or for the fact that we as humankind happen to have a certain percentage of people who enjoy leadership, if it also has some degree of spirituality. I wouldn't look down to those people and call them sheeple. This would exist no matter of religion. Think, monarchies, kingdoms, political leadership, etc. which often also gives pretty strange tips on how to live one's life, sans the spirituality, but often motivated by cash or power. If religion is just another way to organize people, on some principles, it will always make visible those faults that are inherently in people. But the spirituality is there, and that is why so many people follow and forgive (or disobey) the quirky rules.
Your thinking around the problem, very good, if you now read Marx's contribution to the critique of Hegel's philosophy of right, you'll see Marx expresses these issues you raise somewhat more eloquently. To para phrase Marx, religion itself is not the problem, and to tackle religion itself is pointless, the problem is the poverty, the oppression the despair the grief and the lack of education, to which religion is the answer. If you eliminate all of the former, then religion vanishes.
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Old 18.01.2011, 17:11
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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This is exactly why I ****ing hate any type of religion. People arguing about some mystical what ifs and what nots.
Very grateful that my very varied family/cultural/social background has bombarded me from all sides- and freed me from the 'one true faith'. I have relatives and friends from so many forms of Christianity, from Catholics to Plymouth Brehren, Muslims, Buddists, Hindus, Sikhs and Taoists (must have missed a few). And their version of the 'one true faith' would vary greatly. At least the Quakers are tolerant and we share a lot of values. I won't offend any of them - but they better not have a go at me for being an agnostic. Why is it religious people of any persuasions believe that they deserve respect, and yet won't ever respect my choice NOT to believe.
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Old 18.01.2011, 17:12
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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But what reality? Which reality? Who said that rational people own it? Where they got it and from who or where?
The objective, mind-independent reality, from which flows science and all human knowledge. Augustine is responsible for your "opinions" about this. Curse that guy. They made HIM a saint too.

Last edited by daboy; 18.01.2011 at 17:13. Reason: added the saint bit.
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Old 18.01.2011, 17:15
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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That is so. But you can believe that you are right and by extension that the other is deluded but by choice not hark on about that but instead seek a constructive dialogue that focuses on things that unite rather than things that divide.

I may have a favourite football club and a favourite beer but that doesn't prevent me from being good friends with people who have a different favourite, even if on that one point we can never agree.

I think you have created the most egregious false comparison, most football fans of differing teams (with the exception of Rangers and Celtic fans) don't regard one another as sub human, or destined for a well deserved eternity of torture in Hell. This form of un-spoken (and sometimes highly voiced) elitism inevitably leads to tension, violence and blood shed.
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Old 18.01.2011, 17:17
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Your thinking around the problem, very good, if you now read Marx's contribution to the critique of Hegel's philosophy of right, you'll see Marx expresses these issues you raise somewhat more eloquently. To para phrase Marx, religion itself is not the problem, and to tackle religion itself is pointless, the problem is the poverty, the oppression the despair the grief and the lack of education, to which religion is the answer. If you eliminate all of the former, then religion vanishes.
Ay, you picked the wrong ones, I was fed Marx, Engels, Lenin and even Stalin before I could even say a word (which would certainly be "bolix"). We had to read all those. And I dare to disagree. (I am ashamed to admit I believed in the idea of it for a few months when 11). Not only because poor people ended up being mass killed in the name of Marx (despite of him saying it was not religion causing the problem), but also the system based on his theory didn't work, since, the poor people were never really given the choice, the spiritual leadership was taken away from them and many were killed in the name of this "clearance". My favorite poet died in prison, he was catholic, he couldn't take the grief anymore when two of his daughters and his wife were poisoned in 50s by our lovely Marxist Leninist gov, it was their way to make him stop writing his catholic and humble poetry, which he did anyways until he died. He was the enemy of the state (his catholic spiritual poetry is very powerful). I am not sure if poor people are in need of spirituality more than the rich ones, in fact, I feel that they have more of it, than the rich ones. The biggest oppressors in my life and the cause of tragedies in my family and many others were people who called themselves Marxists-Leninists, bunch of thieves, murderers and autocrats. I believe that the search for religion is the search for spirituality (in whatever form), which is natural for people, part of the character development. I have a hard time with dogma, but understand there is a need for certain degree of spirituality in life. To shrink our life to a concrete, provable and tangible material object does not seem enough.
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Old 18.01.2011, 17:19
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Very grateful that my very varied family/cultural/social background has bombarded me from all sides- and freed me from the 'one true faith'. I have relatives and friends from so many forms of Christianity, from Catholics to Plymouth Brehren, Muslims, Buddists, Hindus, Sikhs and Taoists (must have missed a few). And their version of the 'one true faith' would vary greatly. At least the Quakers are tolerant and we share a lot of values. I won't offend any of them - but they better not have a go at me for being an agnostic. Why is it religious people of any persuasions believe that they deserve respect, and yet won't ever respect my choice NOT to believe.
Amen to that...
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Old 18.01.2011, 17:20
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

Little respect should be shown to the idea that cows fly, same goes for religion. I have little respect for the weird beliefs of some people. People are to be respected, not their ideas.
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Old 18.01.2011, 17:22
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

As said before, until not so long ago, Christian against Christian - calling themselves Popist and heretics - torturing, drowning, burning each other in the most pleasant way in the name of the ONE true faith (which one was it - I'm confused). Even in the 40s when my parents got married, my mother a divorced protestant, and my father from staunch catholic stock (with Huguenot roots for good measure! The family escaped France due to religious persecution, but then took on Catholicism to get on in life as they had moved to a Catho Canton!) - they went through hell fire. My dad carried in his purse, in his breast pocket, all his life, a letter from his Catholic sister saying she loved my mum, etc, but that he MUST not betray the ONE true faith by marrying her, or he would not have access to Heaven. I found it when he died, aged 96- how sad is that.

Last edited by Odile; 18.01.2011 at 17:41. Reason: typo
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Old 18.01.2011, 17:25
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Little respect should be shown to the idea that cows fly, same goes for religion. I have little respect for the weird beliefs of some people. People are to be respected, not their ideas.
When you respect someone, you respect him despite his beliefs. And since beliefs are a big part of who someone is, you disrespect him as a person by mocking his beliefs.
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Old 18.01.2011, 17:28
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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As said before, until not so long ago, Christian against Christian - calling themselves Popist and heretics - torturing, drowning, burning each other in the most pleasant way in the name of the ONE true faith (which one was it - I'm confused). Even in the 40s when my parents got married, my mother a divorced protestant, and my father from staunch catholic stock (with Huguenot roots for good measure! The family escaped France due to religious persecution, but then took on Catholicism to get on in life as they had moved to a Catho Canton!) - they went through hell fire. My dad carried in his purse, in his breast pocket, all his life, a letter from his Catholic sister saying she loved my mum, etc, but that he MUST not betray the ONE true faith by marrying her, or he not have access to Heaven. I found it when he died, aged 96- how sad is that.
Yep, that is very sad. As sad as someone pushing someone else to take his religion to be able to get married, sad as someone pushing his beliefs on someone else.

Sad as someone who doesn't believe calling someone a dumb to do so and mocking his whole as a human being.
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Old 18.01.2011, 17:30
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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The biggest oppressors in my life and the cause of tragedies in my family and many others were people who called themselves Marxists-Leninists, bunch of thieves, murderers and autocrats. I believe that the search for religion is the search for spirituality (in whatever form), which is natural for people, part of the character development. I have a hard time with dogma, but understand there is a need for certain degree of spirituality in life. To shrink our life to a concrete, provable and tangible material object does not seem enough.



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Old 18.01.2011, 17:31
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Yep, that is very sad. As sad as someone pushing someone else to take his religion to be able to get married, sad as someone pushing his beliefs on someone else.

Sad as someone who doesn't believe calling someone a dumb to do so and mocking his whole as a human being.
Boo hoo, no one likes my magic man *sob* they all have their own *sob* and each one says his is better than mine..
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Old 18.01.2011, 17:32
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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I have a hard time with dogma, but understand there is a need for certain degree of spirituality in life. To shrink our life to a concrete, provable and tangible material object does not seem enough.
Enough for what? It is what it is. You can't just believe in something because you think you need to. Well you can, but it's stupid. The main thing religions give to people is the hope of a better life after this one. Maybe that's "need[ed]," as you put it, but mostly just to keep the peasants from killing all the rich bastards, who are all too busy having fun with this life to really care about the possibility of there being a next one. Or they used their money to get educated and know that the likelihood of there being a next life is about the same as the likelihood of the universe having been sneezed out of Nimoy's left nostril.
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