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  #141  
Old 19.01.2011, 13:55
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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True, but too many people respond to hurt feelings by hurting people's bodies - and not necessarily the bodies of those people who hurt their feelings in the first place!

If people don't like to hear their religion being mocked, perhaps they ought to simply stop listening?
Why someone's feelings should be less important than someone's body?

Maybe for you, you don't care to talk shit about someone else, maybe you don't care to send their reputation into dirt and to destroyed their mental health.

Like maybe someone doesn't care to break your legs, break your nose, etc.

This is why you have laws to protect both cases. Don't offend someone and don't hurt someone. Living in society does kind of reduce your freedom to do what ever you believe having the right to do. Apparently walking naked in the street can morally offend someone, so it is not allowed. Why burning a flag should be?

You can't just act the way you want because you think that what you believe are your rights are biggers importance that the guy next to you. You want to be totally free? Go far far away when you are alone and knock yourself out!
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  #142  
Old 19.01.2011, 13:57
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Why someone's feelings should be less important than someone's body?

Maybe for you, you don't care to talk shit about someone else, maybe you don't care to send their reputation into dirt and to destroyed their mental health.

Like maybe someone doesn't care to break your legs, break your nose, etc.

This is why you have laws to protect both cases. Don't offend someone and don't hurt someone. Living in society does kind of reduce your freedom to do what ever you believe having the right to do. Apparently walking naked in the street can morally offend someone, so it is not allowed. Why burning a flag should be?

You can just act the way you want because you think that what you believe are your rights are biggers importance that the guy next to you. You want to be totally freedom? Go far far away when you are alone and knock yourself out!
If you consider burning a flag or mocking someone's prophet to be morally equivalent to breaking his legs or his nose, there's little point discussing this with you.
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  #143  
Old 19.01.2011, 14:05
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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If you consider burning a flag or mocking someone's prophet to be morally equivalent to breaking his legs or his nose, there's little point discussing this with you.
No, you should know me better than this. I am asking you a question with both point of view.

I am personnally against both side. I don't agree to hust someone's feeling or beliefs under the saint freedom of speech as I don't believe to hurt someone physically. Both I do believe that one isn't better than the other one.
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  #144  
Old 19.01.2011, 14:11
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

I asked about the Pope and beatification, not about fundamental religious beliefs or hurt feelings.
I am a Christian but If someone chooses not to believe in God and tells me so, then I am not automatically offended.
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  #145  
Old 19.01.2011, 14:12
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

Whysoserious, you just groan for the fun of it?
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  #146  
Old 19.01.2011, 14:15
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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I asked about the Pope and beatification, not about fundamental religious beliefs or hurt feelings.
I am a Christian but If someone chooses not to believe in God and tells me so, then I am not automatically offended.
I hope so! But if someone call you dumb ass and tell you hpw ridiculous you are to do so, and who will go around and say to everyone you know that you are someone you are not, you may be offended. And you know what? It will be normal and logical. Nothing wrong with that.

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Would you believe that it is his rights to do this to you? Would you put a smile on and give him your blessing to keep going or you'll find a way to stop him? And what way would you take?
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  #147  
Old 19.01.2011, 14:23
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Whysoserious, you just groan for the fun of it?
Do you moan constantly for the fun of it?

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Both I do believe that one isn't better than the other one.
That for me was groan worthy just like the other ones you earned. It's not like I pinched your bottom in public.
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  #148  
Old 19.01.2011, 14:28
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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The King James version was the first to be transcribed into english
Oh dearie, dearie me...
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Old 19.01.2011, 14:30
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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I hope so! But if someone call you dumb ass and tell you hpw ridiculous you are to do so, and who will go around and say to everyone you know that you are someone you are not, you may be offended. And you know what? It will be normal and logical. Nothing wrong with that.
Well if someone acts dumb then it won't be far fetched for people to think or in some cases call them out for being dumb. Ever met a dumb person who actually recognized their own dumbness? Look at me as I wrongly think that I am not a dumb ass lol

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Would you believe that it is his rights to do this to you? Would you put a smile on and give him your blessing to keep going or you'll find a way to stop him? And what way would you take?
How about just walking away and not getting worked up?
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Old 19.01.2011, 14:40
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

A wee bit new news on popes, pork pies and paedophilia
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  #151  
Old 19.01.2011, 15:40
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

The good thing is, in the free world, you can always count on the rest of a witty group to gang up on the poor soul who commits the gravest faux-pas of them all: failure to take a joke or criticism
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  #152  
Old 19.01.2011, 16:36
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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About "it helps people being better"
True but on the other side I believe religion is probably the biggest single cause of violent deaths in the world's history! Fairly recent events were the partition of India & Pakistan in 1947 with resulting deaths estimated at large fractions of a million, or the Yugoslavia break-up or Nothern Ireland.
I would not want to belong to a group that thinks it is OK to murder people for no other reason than they belong to another group, so that rules out Christian, Muslim, Hindu &&&.
I would support the Sainthood of a Pope who stood up, clearly condemned such events & took action against any of his own followers who were involved.
Hmmm...I have no ideals about people not going after one anothers necks, if the religion was out of the question. In fact, people have been very inventive to come up with all sorts of reasons to justify their cravings for personal gain, power, cash, food, future of their kids, or just for the heck of it. I am not really sure if it was really faith that "made" people kill. Or, if somebody just simply used it to motivate people to facilitate the leader's gain of power. It is unfortunate, it gets contributed to religion, but I know I contribute our old commie murders to the pretty innocent and logical theory of that time, too. I am not sure how much power did JPII had to actually stand up and talk "against" the accepted policy of what he meant to represent. Sometimes it is easier to blame the surrounding countries, UN or whoever for not stopping the murderers in their vicious plan, just like our commie murderers should have been stopped in what they were doing. While I don't buy into the commie materialism theories of everyone being potentially anti egotistic, the spiritual foundation of faith certainly says more to me. I don't think criticizing the symbol of church will change anything, I don't think we know what it happening behind the doors in Vatican. I think JPII did as much as he possibly could have done, in his position.
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  #153  
Old 19.01.2011, 17:26
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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  #154  
Old 19.01.2011, 18:13
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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I don't agree to hust someone's feeling or beliefs under the saint freedom of speech as I don't believe to hurt someone physically. Both I do believe that one isn't better than the other one.
You need to have the freedom to challenge someone's beliefs otherwise how will anything change? If someone can't defend their beliefs, perhaps they should start re-appraising them.
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  #155  
Old 19.01.2011, 18:21
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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You need to have the freedom to challenge someone's beliefs otherwise how will anything change? If someone can't defend their beliefs, perhaps they should start re-appraising them.
I agree with you, my Whole point is to do it with respect.
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  #156  
Old 19.01.2011, 18:28
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Hmmm...I have no ideals about people not going after one anothers necks, if the religion was out of the question. In fact, people have been very inventive to come up with all sorts of reasons to justify their cravings for personal gain, power, cash, food, future of their kids, or just for the heck of it. I am not really sure if it was really faith that "made" people kill. Or, if somebody just simply used it to motivate people to facilitate the leader's gain of power. It is unfortunate, it gets contributed to religion, but I know I contribute our old commie murders to the pretty innocent and logical theory of that time, too. I am not sure how much power did JPII had to actually stand up and talk "against" the accepted policy of what he meant to represent. Sometimes it is easier to blame the surrounding countries, UN or whoever for not stopping the murderers in their vicious plan, just like our commie murderers should have been stopped in what they were doing. While I don't buy into the commie materialism theories of everyone being potentially anti egotistic, the spiritual foundation of faith certainly says more to me. I don't think criticizing the symbol of church will change anything, I don't think we know what it happening behind the doors in Vatican. I think JPII did as much as he possibly could have done, in his position.
Yes, but is this position necessarily a good one then?
Things will only change if they are challenged. Questioning something is the first step on the road to enlightenment.
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Old 19.01.2011, 18:31
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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You need to have the freedom to challenge someone's beliefs otherwise how will anything change? If someone can't defend their beliefs, perhaps they should start re-appraising them.
I don't want to put words in Nil's mouth but I think her point was not about challenging beliefs but attacking a person because of their beliefs. The former might be acceptable, depending on how you go about it. The latter really isn't on. As in...

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if someone call you dumb ass and tell you hpw ridiculous you are to do so, and who will go around and say to everyone you know that you are someone you are not
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  #158  
Old 19.01.2011, 18:33
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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I agree with you, my Whole point is to do it with respect.
But you should respect the person, not the beliefs.

And the religious typically get upset when people 'offend' their religion, e.g. the Life of Brian, the Satanic Verses, a cartoon of Mohammed, a statue of Christ with an erection, 'obscene' paintings of Hindu gods and godesses etc etc . . .
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Old 19.01.2011, 18:47
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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But you should respect the person, not the beliefs.

And the religious typically get upset when people 'offend' their religion, e.g. the Life of Brian, the Satanic Verses, a cartoon of Mohammed, a statue of Christ with an erection, 'obscene' paintings of Hindu gods and godesses etc etc . . .
But if you respect the person, you'll respect the beliefs. You still can challenge them, but the way you'll do it will be nicer.

If you offend my mama's picture, I believe that I will be upset too. Would I be right to be upset for what ever you draw my mother in? For some people, their religion is what define them, what make them go throw life. You can argue with them on what they believe, you can rejected it but you should have enough respect for other human being to let them with their beliefs without attacking them on a personal level.

Thanks Nev, you spot on what I am trying to say. Get a bit difficult when you have 4-5 people jumping on you with differents tactics, phrase twisted or out of contexts sentences... And in a second language...

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Old 19.01.2011, 19:04
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

I agree about respect - but it just has to go both ways. Religious groups disrespect other religious groups to the point of killing them, as individuals or as whole groups. Religious people often do their very best to destroy the beliefs of those who do NOT believe! As an agnostic/humanist my beliefs that man is in charge and responsible of he/his own destiny- is derided, mocked and much more, by many if not most religious people, in varying proportion. Look at the virulent reaction against Dawkins for instance.

It is extremely difficult, bordering on the impossible, for somebody with a very strong faith to be 'tolerant'. If you truly believe that YOUR God has the only answer to all the world's ills, and is the only way to salvation, both personal and for humanity - the urge to convert others must be irresistible.
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