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Old 19.01.2011, 18:13
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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But if you respect the person, you'll respect the beliefs. You still can challenge them, but the way you'll do it will be nicer.

If you offend my mama's picture, I believe that I will be upset too. Would I be right to be upset for what ever you draw my mother in? For some people, their religion is what define them, what make them go throw life. You can argue with them on what they believe, you can rejected it but you should have enough respect for other human being to let them with their beliefs without attacking them on a personal level.
I don't think that attacking religious people, rather than their beliefs happens very often (in discussion that is, I'm not talking about religio-political conflicts which have a military dimension).

But in your second paragraph you seem to be muddying the distinction between a person and a personal religious belief. I should definitely, for example, to be free to mock a Scientologists beliefs. If you can't do that then it means almost all mockery and criticism is closed down as religious protection can be spuriously claimed. For some, perhaps, this was the point of religion.
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Old 19.01.2011, 18:39
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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I don't think that attacking religious people, rather than their beliefs happens very often


Still living on Happy Cloud of Happiness, I see, GG.

The persecution of people because of their beliefs (or, just as often, their perceived beliefs) happens all the time on message boards, in newspapers and in pubs all over the Anglosphere.

Not many people take the trouble to make the nice distinctions so beloved of readers of the Guardian.

Not that it matters, of course. Anyone who wants to take the micturition out of me for my beliefs is free to go ahead and do so: it really doesn't bother me in the slightest, because I know that I'm right.

Is there room on Happy Cloud of Happiness for me, do you reckon?
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Old 19.01.2011, 18:52
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

Well DB, I know for sure I am doomed - those 2 tagines are too bl*****y heavy.
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Old 19.01.2011, 19:40
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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About " The King James version was the first to be transcribed into english, and it is assumed that it was an authentic translation."

1. It was not the first, the first one was about 300 years earlier - claimed to be by John Wycliffe in about 1382. There were several other translations during those 300 years. In fact the Act of Parliament requesting the King James version said "An act for the reducing of diversities of bibles now extant in the English tongue to one settled vulgar translated from the original"

2. They did a good job of the King James version but it was itself revised 4 times in the next 200 years.
I bow down to your superior knowledge.....
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Old 19.01.2011, 19:40
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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I agree about respect - but it just has to go both ways. Totally, one can't go without the other one. Some Religious groups disrespect other religious groups to the point of killing them, as individuals or as whole groups. Some Religious people often do their very best to destroy the beliefs of those who do NOT believe! As an agnostic/humanist my beliefs that man is in charge and responsible of he/his own destiny- is derided, mocked and much more, by many if not most religious people, in varying proportion. I didn't got that treatment because I don't like to talk about religion (outside of EF) My things, your things, let keep it like this and stay nice to each other... Look at the virulent reaction against Dawkins for instance.

It is extremely difficult, bordering on the impossible, for somebody with a very strong faith to be 'tolerant'. I don't agree, I met some very religious people that didn't judge me on my lack of faith because in their beliefs religion is such a personal matter and shouldn't be pushed on someone else. Call me lucky, but I don't think those people are that rare... If you truly believe that YOUR God has the only answer to all the world's ills, and is the only way to salvation, both personal and for humanity - the urge to convert others must be irresistible.
Yep I agree on the last bit. Years ago, I came accross a Taxi driver who told me that I was going to burn in hell for not being a muslim. I told him that this judgement will made by, I believe, Allah itself and not him. That it wasn't his job to do the job of Allah! That did it and he couldn't argue on that.

You have stupid people everywhere. In everything. And when you meet a stupid one who is also loud of spraying his stupidness, what can you do? Insult him? Tell him that he is a stupid idiot and his beliefs are ridiculous? Why to do that?

Same as you don't want to have someone trying to convert you, someone doesn't want you to disrespect his religion. But the problem is that we are not that good at living with each other without interfering and attacking each other. Nope, the believers (some) want to make their points and convert as much as possible, and the non-believers (some) want to make their points to others that they know better...

As long as we are not going to show respect for each other, we won't go anywhere. I have some friends that are strong believers and we never have any problems between us because we leave our beliefs where it belongs, in privacy. I had some friends that wanted to push their ideas on me, I don't have them around me anymore. Because No, wasn't enough for them.

But as a non-believer, I won't burn bibles, Quran, flags, barbies, etc. Because I find it being very offensive and it does put oil on the fire which is totally unecessary. Those who do that are also doing it to push their ideas on the believers. And like the other way around, it is wrong.
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Old 19.01.2011, 19:47
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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I don't think that attacking religious people, rather than their beliefs happens very often (in discussion that is, I'm not talking about religio-political conflicts which have a military dimension).

But in your second paragraph you seem to be muddying the distinction between a person and a personal religious belief. I should definitely, for example, to be free to mock a Scientologists beliefs. If you can't do that then it means almost all mockery and criticism is closed down as religious protection can be spuriously claimed. For some, perhaps, this was the point of religion.
I understand your point. But I think that doing so, you have to be ready to make people unhappy. Because, as we are not in the perfect world where everyone will react the way they ''should'', some may react in a very strong way that could cause you trouble, hate, pain, etc. I am not saying that is correct. But what I am trying to say is that we are not in a perfect world where everyone react well and close their ears if they don't want to hear you and keep walking their way. Many will do, but too many won't.

So we have to live with this reality and act with that in our mind. Because as much as you believe in your right to say what ever you want, some others, out there, believe that it is their right to stop you what ever it takes (by words, physically, etc) Is it corect? no. But in their point of view, YOU are not the correct one.

So it comes back to the question discusted earlier, who is right? who had the truth?
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  #167  
Old 19.01.2011, 19:52
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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The Pope deceased, John Paul II, is to be"fast-tracked" to sainthood (???) because a French nun with Parkinson's disease prayed to him and recovered!!
Hallelujah - praise the Lord!!

Please excuse me if I am somewhat sceptical............

What's your opinion on this?
Religious type threads always get off-track, hysterically so. Back to the original thread....... My personal view here is .... Mankind can do what they like with their ceremonies, but no-one KNOWS what the REALITY really is! hahahaaaaaaa..... they just playing little earth games.
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  #168  
Old 19.01.2011, 20:01
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Religious type threads always get off-track, hysterically so. Back to the original thread....... My personal view here is .... Mankind can do what they like with their ceremonies, but no-one KNOWS what the REALITY really is! hahahaaaaaaa..... they just playing little earth games.
Between a JP II who ruled the Catholic world with a comfortable life and a Theresa mother who lived in misery to help others and gave her life for them, I'll chose her anytime to be a Saint.
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  #169  
Old 19.01.2011, 20:05
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Still living on Happy Cloud of Happiness, I see, GG.

The persecution of people because of their beliefs (or, just as often, their perceived beliefs) happens all the time on message boards, in newspapers and in pubs all over the Anglosphere.

Not many people take the trouble to make the nice distinctions so beloved of readers of the Guardian.

Not that it matters, of course. Anyone who wants to take the micturition out of me for my beliefs is free to go ahead and do so: it really doesn't bother me in the slightest, because I know that I'm right.

Is there room on Happy Cloud of Happiness for me, do you reckon?
I'm not saying it doesn't happen, especially on the pre-school playground-like forums that abound on t'Internet. But even on this board we have rules against personal abuse but nothing against criticising religion. And that's true on many forums and personal abuse is pretty much frowned on in real life in a way that criticising a belief isn't.
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  #170  
Old 19.01.2011, 20:13
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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personal abuse is pretty much frowned on in real life in a way that criticising a belief isn't.
...well, that's alright I suppose.
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  #171  
Old 19.01.2011, 20:22
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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personal abuse is pretty much frowned on in real life in a way that criticising a belief isn't.
I beg to differ. As a recent convert to Christianity, who still manages to pass under the radar for a lot of people IRL by being, well, kind of normal (like the overwhelming majority of religious people, although you'd never think it from some of the nonsense that is said about us), you wouldn't believe the sort of stuff I've heard said about people who believe in "that rubbish": not just criticisms of "that rubbish" itself, but criticisms of the people themselves for being so stupid, so pigheaded, so moronic, so undereducated, so gullible as to be taken in by any of it.

Now, I don't have a problem with that. People can say whatever they like about whomsoever they like, in my opinion, even if what they are saying is odious, hateful or inciteful. Words, after all, are just words, and if someone pushes it too far, natural law (or common sense, whichever you prefer) dictates that they'll come to regret their indiscretion sooner or later.

But to imagine that personal abuse is, somehow, unacceptable in modern society is to imagine a world that simply doesn't exist. Haven't you ever sat in a pub and listened to the lads at the next table banging on about Muslims - not Islam, mind: Muslims? Haven't you ever sat at a dinner table and heard some apparently well educated chap bang on about those deluded Bible bashing rednecks in the United States? It is not the beliefs that are being critically appraised - it is the people themselves, and their stupidity, credulity or criminality. How many people, for that matter, would be happy to share a beer with a self-proclaimed fascist? I've done that, on the principle that a man is not the sum of his beliefs, but I can't say it was easy, by any means.

That's just human nature. The separation of people from their beliefs is purely an academic exercise, that hardly exists outside university common rooms and North London dinner parties. For everyone else, belief is so rooted in identity and emotion, on all sides, that making the distinction between who someone is and what they believe is almost impossible.
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  #172  
Old 19.01.2011, 20:29
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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you wouldn't believe the sort of stuff I've heard said about people who believe in "that rubbish": not just criticisms of "that rubbish" itself, but criticisms of the people themselves for being so stupid, so pigheaded, so moronic, so undereducated, so gullible as to be taken in by any of it.
No offence but that does not sound that harsh to me.
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  #173  
Old 19.01.2011, 20:31
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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No offence but that does not sound that harsh to me.
Like I said, it doesn't bother me, but it can't be denied that identifying a person with his beliefs happens all the time, even among self-proclaimed "enlightened" people.

And, after all, a stereotype is a stereotype, and we all know where that can end up...
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  #174  
Old 19.01.2011, 20:50
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Like I said, it doesn't bother me, but it can't be denied that identifying a person with his beliefs happens all the time, even among self-proclaimed "enlightened" people.
Well they are interlinked. For a gun to fire you need a gunner. For a fart to materialize you need a professional farter.
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  #175  
Old 19.01.2011, 22:34
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Hmmm...I have no ideals about people not going after one anothers necks, if the religion was out of the question. In fact, people have been very inventive to come up with all sorts of reasons to justify their cravings for personal gain, power, cash, food, future of their kids, or just for the heck of it. I am not really sure if it was really faith that "made" people kill. Or, if somebody just simply used it to motivate people to facilitate the leader's gain of power. It is unfortunate, it gets contributed to religion, but I know I contribute our old commie murders to the pretty innocent and logical theory of that time, too. I am not sure how much power did JPII had to actually stand up and talk "against" the accepted policy of what he meant to represent. Sometimes it is easier to blame the surrounding countries, UN or whoever for not stopping the murderers in their vicious plan, just like our commie murderers should have been stopped in what they were doing. While I don't buy into the commie materialism theories of everyone being potentially anti egotistic, the spiritual foundation of faith certainly says more to me. I don't think criticizing the symbol of church will change anything, I don't think we know what it happening behind the doors in Vatican. I think JPII did as much as he possibly could have done, in his position.
About "I don't think we know what it happening behind the doors in Vatican. I think JPII did as much as he possibly could have done, in his position"

Well if JPII was God's representative on earth then he could do anything, no limits?
However if he was simply a man holding a position of power and had to measure & balance his actions against
  • the views of other powerful leaders
  • the views of his colleagues
  • the impact of those actions on his followers views & beliefs
  • political implications
then that is another story.
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  #176  
Old 19.01.2011, 22:36
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Well they are interlinked. For a gun to fire you need a gunner. For a fart to materialize you need a professional farter.
All these years & I never realised I needed professional training & qualifications; too late to call back all those amateur emissions

Last edited by marton; 19.01.2011 at 22:51.
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Old 19.01.2011, 22:53
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

I know a guy who is a professional farteur for the Swiss ski team.
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Old 19.01.2011, 23:30
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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All these years & I never realised I needed professional training & qualifications; too late to call back all those amateur emissions
It is my strong belief that you are destined for fart hell. All animals from God's kingdom will fart on your face eternally. There is still hope for you if you join Sunday fart school and repent.
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  #179  
Old 20.01.2011, 00:42
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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The separation of people from their beliefs is purely an academic exercise, that hardly exists outside university common rooms and North London dinner parties. For everyone else, belief is so rooted in identity and emotion, on all sides, that making the distinction between who someone is and what they believe is almost impossible.
Working out the intricate play between identity, emotion and belief is a somewhat more academic exercise. Of course it exists, but that's a descriptive statement rather than a plan for fairness.

Separation of personal abuse from criticism of a belief is something so simple it appears in the EF rules which the mods apply every day.

You're going to the wrong pubs, DB.
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Old 20.01.2011, 03:12
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Re: Pope on Fast Track to Sainthood

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Between a JP II who ruled the Catholic world with a comfortable life and a Theresa mother who lived in misery to help others and gave her life for them, I'll chose her anytime to be a Saint.
Is that the same Mother Theresa who was beatified because someone claimed that a beam of light came form a picture of her hanging in her home and cured her of a cancerous tumor that her doctor stated she didn't have in the first place and that the tubercular cyst she did have was cured by a course of prescription medicine?

The one that described contraception as "a selfish act" and "anti-life"?

The one totally against any reform in the Catholic church?

The one who visited Haiti as a guest of the Duvaliers, and said that "the poor people so familiar with their head of state as they were with her. It was a beautiful lesson for me." ?

The one who told thousands of women who were victims of rape during the Bangladeshi Independence War that they should have the children anyway?

Or another (saintly) one?
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