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  #221  
Old 01.02.2011, 02:23
hoppy
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Re: Egypt- "Jan25_ Day of revolution"

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The best solution for who? Egyptians? then full Democracy like the one you enjoy.
Why do you want to put conditions on people that you do not accept in your own country?
Why don't other countries respect peoples' free choice when they get the opportunity to do so?

I am criticising double standard that put Egypt and many other countries around the world in this situation. It is sickening enough listening to those leaders saying loudly in TV "We support the choice of the Egyption people" and whispering in the backstage "Except if they chose XYZ....."
Still criticizing? It just sounds full of bitterness and negativity, that will keep you tied, why not embrace optimism? What could be a better solution for the people of the US than a democratic Middle East? The cost of Afghanistan and Iraq, the Peace Process weigh heavily.
No-one is watching events in Pakistan right now.
What surprised me, I was ignorant of, was that there was discontent in Jordan
You just gave another load of criticism what is your vision for Egypt?

Be specific, whom do you mean when you say XYZ?

Last edited by hoppy; 01.02.2011 at 02:36.
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  #222  
Old 01.02.2011, 08:09
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Re: Egypt- "Jan25_ Day of revolution"

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Still criticizing? It just sounds full of bitterness and negativity, that will keep you tied, why not embrace optimism? What could be a better solution for the people of the US than a democratic Middle East? The cost of Afghanistan and Iraq, the Peace Process weigh heavily.
No-one is watching events in Pakistan right now.
What surprised me, I was ignorant of, was that there was discontent in Jordan
You just gave another load of criticism what is your vision for Egypt?

Be specific, whom do you mean when you say XYZ?
It doesn't have to be a solution that is good for US, it has to be good for Egyptians. That is my point, that I am trying to get to you.

Unfortuanately, there is no one on the political map of Egypt who is good enough to lead Egypt. That is the problem, and that is a result of the current system.

Mubarak need to resign if people marched tomorrow, his deputy should take over and put a timeline for parlimantary election. then in my opnion the presedential elections should be delayed for a year at least in order to give time for political parties to prepare themselves. This may get people angry if they do not understand the situation.

I was not involved in Egyptian politics, becuase there was none. I need an opportunity to examine who is there and what they want to do with the country if they come to power. Thats why I do not agree on the demand that the whole system must leave, becuase this is practically impossible and dangerous.
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  #223  
Old 01.02.2011, 11:26
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Re: Egypt- "Jan25_ Day of revolution"

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And how do you call this "Democracy"??

This is exactly what is in place now but with different conditions.
what's your problem? the "same" but with "different conditions"? Kind of antinomic here.
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  #224  
Old 01.02.2011, 11:34
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Re: Egypt- "Jan25_ Day of revolution"

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Here's the upcoming plan of protests:

Can you unzoom further? wanna see more of them
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  #225  
Old 01.02.2011, 11:40
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Re: Egypt- "Jan25_ Day of revolution"

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what's your problem? the "same" but with "different conditions"? Kind of antinomic here.
Same as current system in Egypt.

Conditional Democracy to exclude those unwanted is not a Democracy. hope it is clear now.
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  #226  
Old 01.02.2011, 11:42
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Re: Egypt- "Jan25_ Day of revolution"

The map is not accurate - Iraq is democratic (but very unstable)
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  #227  
Old 01.02.2011, 11:48
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Re: Egypt- "Jan25_ Day of revolution"

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Same as current system in Egypt.

Conditional Democracy to exclude those unwanted is not a Democracy. hope it is clear now.
No one has the monopol of religion: no party can claim to be muslim/christian and the others less muslim/christian or apostates. No party should be allowed to promote less rights for women. No party can claim to be the unique egyptian party and the others less patriotic etc.... These are the conditions to participate in a healthy political life and debate in a country.
Proportional representation will allow every party to be represented and will force all parties to talk to each other.
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  #228  
Old 01.02.2011, 11:50
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Re: Egypt- "Jan25_ Day of revolution"

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The map is not accurate - Iraq is democratic (but very unstable)
Iraq was not made "free" by popular revolution, it was made "free" by an invasion. That's the main lesson of Tunisia & Egypt. You can change dictators without having to invade and bomb a country and its people.

PS: the only government transitions (if they ever took place) were done without asking the people. That's why political assassination was so widespread (Sadate etc...).
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  #229  
Old 01.02.2011, 12:26
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Re: Egypt- "Jan25_ Day of revolution"

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Iraq was not made "free" by popular revolution, it was made "free" by an invasion. That's the main lesson of Tunisia & Egypt. You can change dictators without having to invade and bomb a country and its people.

PS: the only government transitions (if they ever took place) were done without asking the people. That's why political assassination was so widespread (Sadate etc...).
[
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  #230  
Old 01.02.2011, 13:16
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Re: Egypt- "Jan25_ Day of revolution"

one of 3 models look more probable:
-Turkey model (relatively democratic)
-Iran model (fanatic, unpredictable, populist, kept by arms)
-Russian model (a kind of republic being supported by army/information authorities)
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  #231  
Old 01.02.2011, 13:31
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Re: Egypt- "Jan25_ Day of revolution"

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one of 3 models look more probable:
-Turkey model (relatively democratic)
-Iran model (fanatic, unpredictable, populist, kept by arms)
-Russian model (a kind of republic being supported by army/information authorities)
Or the Pakistani model.
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  #232  
Old 01.02.2011, 14:33
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Re: Egypt- "Jan25_ Day of revolution"

Should I put it in fail of the day?!
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egypt-jan-25-day-revolution-update-mubarak-resigns-510570211_orig.jpg  
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  #233  
Old 01.02.2011, 14:56
hoppy
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Re: Egypt- "Jan25_ Day of revolution"

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Should I put it in fail of the day?!
I can't believe this, Is it really true or made up? If truem then you can see what is on Fox news's mind.
There was a Republican on CNN last night saying that the US must support Muburak.
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  #234  
Old 01.02.2011, 15:00
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Re: Egypt- "Jan25_ Day of revolution"

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one of 3 models look more probable:
-Turkey model (relatively democratic)
-Iran model (fanatic, unpredictable, populist, kept by arms)
-Russian model (a kind of republic being supported by army/information authorities)
or egyptian model. Each country will invent itself and the solution that suits its population. I suspect some people here are projecting their own fears and fantasies on egyptian revolution.

Jordan update: King sacks the government in a preemptive move.
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  #235  
Old 01.02.2011, 15:04
hoppy
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Re: Egypt- "Jan25_ Day of revolution"

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It doesn't have to be a solution that is good for US, it has to be good for Egyptians. That is my point, that I am trying to get to you.

Mubarak need to resign if people marched tomorrow, his deputy should take over and put a timeline for parlimantary election. then in my opnion the presedential elections should be delayed for a year at least in order to give time for political parties to prepare themselves. .
No , I got that point, but Muburak's deputy then delay elections for one year?
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  #236  
Old 01.02.2011, 15:06
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Re: Egypt- "Jan25_ Day of revolution"

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No one has the monopol of religion: no party can claim to be muslim/christian and the others less muslim/christian or apostates. No party should be allowed to promote less rights for women. No party can claim to be the unique egyptian party and the others less patriotic etc.... These are the conditions to participate in a healthy political life and debate in a country.
Proportional representation will allow every party to be represented and will force all parties to talk to each other.
Sorry, but that is not practical. Who will decide that?

If I am in power I will put all conditions I want to prevent aother parties from promoting whatever policies they have.

YOu are only talking about your own opinion, why do you prevent others from expressing theirs even if it is extreme?

Here in Switzerland, a democratic country, a law was approved to prevent Muslims from building Mosques in certain way. In your logic why should one prevent someone else from building certain buildings? but people accepted and said that it is the choice of majority.

This is the double standard that I am talking about. Democracy is to let people of different opinions express themselves and you can oppose and explain the disadvantages if you want, or if you are able to. That is democracy.

Excluding others from the system because you don't like their thinking is oppression and dectatorship.
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  #237  
Old 01.02.2011, 15:09
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Re: Egypt- "Jan25_ Day of revolution"

Real secular democracy in ME?

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  #238  
Old 01.02.2011, 16:04
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Re: Egypt- "Jan25_ Day of revolution"

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Should I put it in fail of the day?!

Makes sense, move Egypt next to Iran.

They just need to move Israel to Egypt & Iraq to Israel.

Would solve a lot of issues.
Might create some new issues but hey you cannot make an omelette without breaking some eggs.

Edited - did not make sense without the original thumbnail

Last edited by marton; 08.12.2017 at 18:37.
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  #239  
Old 01.02.2011, 21:38
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Re: Egypt- "Jan25_ Day of revolution"

Gone quiet here; everybody manning the barricades?

Funny about Iran; I thought this might happen
From CNN
Iranian leaders, opposition both embrace Egyptian protesters
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/me...ran/index.html

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"While some governments are trying to walk a fine line between supporting Egypt's president and supporting protesters in that tumultuous nation, Iranian officials are taking the side of the protesters.
But an Iranian opposition leader is making a competing claim of solidarity with the demonstrators, pointing out that when Iran's leaders faced a similar movement in their own backyard two years ago, they crushed it."
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  #240  
Old 01.02.2011, 22:42
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Re: Egypt- "Jan25_ Day of revolution"

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Makes sense, move Egypt next to Iran.

They just need to move Israel to Egypt & Iraq to Israel.

Would solve a lot of issues.
Might create some new issues but hey you cannot make an omelette without breaking some eggs.

Edited - did not make sense without the original thumbnail
This map is old.
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