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  #181  
Old 11.09.2008, 13:58
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

7 years down the road of time and history.
I think it's an attack that has something to do with a US secret services operation which went awfully wrong.
Had "they" wanted to attack Afghanistan and Iraq, they would have had the same case (but maybe less resonance) if they had arrested the terrorist cells some hours before.

Let's not forget how the US armed the Taliban, and how it is engaging in "indirect" strikes against whatever enemy is in the crosshair - even if and when this means having to go to bed with yet another (different) enemy :-/
The hubris and arrogance of thinking that these kind of covert operations will always succeed carries IMHO the seed of their failure. And we've heard plenty of examples of the lame failures that were accumulated by FBI and CIA in the months preceding the 911 attacks. It was difficult to get two official agencies to cooperate? Hah! Can you even begin to contemplate when all the official agencies + the covert teams try to "organize" their special Ops? Each agency with it's own agenda, each man with his own ego?

What an immense, tragic, useless, wasteful f-u-*-*-u-p

YMMV

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  #182  
Old 11.09.2008, 13:58
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

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I believe the memory of those who perished has been partly sullied by the actions of the US and British governments in the weeks/months/years after. The tone of that exploitation was probably set on day 1, when a Labour advisor sent a memo indicating that 'today would be a good day to bury bad news'.
In Australia this was definitely the case. The attacks in the US were a godsend to the Howard government, who went from trailing in the polls to winning the federal election in November 2001 with an increased majority. See also "Tampa" and "Children overboard".
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  #183  
Old 11.09.2008, 14:22
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

Let's do a simple tally what 7 years down the "war on terror" road has given us:

* 2 invaded countries, thousands dead, score rising daily
* eroded civil rights in the US, wiretapping, arrests without warrants. Government more of a threat than terrorists.
* torture and illegal detentions in Guantanamo
* US even more hated than before 9/11
* truth about 9/11 STILL not out there
* Osama probably still roaming free, as is a majority of al-Qaeda leadership
* no weapons of mass destruction found in Iraq, reason for war still not justified

Under the Bush administration any sympathy the US received after 9/11 has been ripped to shreds and used as toilet paper.... ironically he keeps claiming "we" are winning the war on terror.
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  #184  
Old 11.09.2008, 16:24
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

It's no wonder the conspiracy theories exist..... to this day there are strong suggestions that Pearl Harbour didn't catch the Americans completely by surprise while the justifications for landing troops in Vietnam and way back at the end of the 19th century for invading Cuba both concerned reports of "enemy action" on ship which were later proved to be false. Even after 9/11, much of the claims about what Saddam had and was doing which was used to justify the invasion of Iraq, were found to be false.

There is always a reluctance to let go of history, thus a certain element of society will always question whether the US government itself had something to do with what happened on 9/11. Personally I can live without certainty on this issue.

A large part of me suspects it was a simple yet brilliantly conceived and hatched plan by Bin Laden and his associates. I use the world brilliant in a completely amoral sense. This part of me suspects that what Bin Laden was after was not only the destruction wreaked and the images that went around the world that day and stayed with us all, but primarily a reaction from the US Government which would in turn provoke people in the Islam world to join in with the Jihad he wished to wage. Before 9/11, the invasions of Afghnaisten and Iraq, the numbers involved in the jihad were relatively small. There is even some film taken of Bin Laden prior to the year 2000 in which local tribeman were paid to pose as part of his outfit, such was the dearth of ready volunteers he had for the cause. He needed a huge recruitment drive to give his dreams a chance to fly, and with 20 suicide volunteers and the government of Bush, he got precisely what he wanted.

But there's also a small part of me that suspects that agents provovatuers were at work, and thet in actual fact it was Bin Laden and his cohorts who ended up unwittingly doing precisely what they were being set up to do.

Kind of two contrasting thoughts I know. but I can live with them. I don't need certainty. The only certainty I have is the sadness I will always feel when the lives of normal innocent people are considered expendable by those who play their power politics.
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  #185  
Old 11.09.2008, 17:18
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

While some seem to think it's all a conspiracy, I do not. I think that the US became lazy and arrogant (both government & citizens). Bin Laden didn't plan for the towers to crash - that was a failure that could not be predicted. But he did want sensation & destruction. The US government had left itself vunerable in a vital area: human intelligence. There were electronic intercepts on the 10th of Septemberr that did not get translated until the 12th. Had this info been available sooner, perhaps the overall loss of life could have been less. And in the end - it is the loss of life we mourn. Innocent victims who will not be brought back, no matter who is to blame.
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  #186  
Old 11.09.2008, 17:19
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

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The reports don't mention thermate (it's thermite by the way) but rather thermite-like traces, i.e. evidence of aluminium-based reactions.
Not sure what reports you're referencing, but thermate is simply thermite that contains sulfur (sometimes with barium nitrate), which makes it burn hotter.

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Which you'd sort of expect when you pulverise (as opposed to melting a slab in a pan like the kind professor did) a quantity of aluminium (say, like, an airplane) and combine it with fire.
I don't find corroboration for the premise that aircraft aluminum pulverizes on impact.

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But that's just me.
Yes, it very much is.

Last edited by Texaner; 11.09.2008 at 20:50. Reason: spelling correct (thanks, shorrick)
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  #187  
Old 11.09.2008, 17:23
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

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Let's do a simple tally what 7 years down the "war on terror" road has given us:

*snip*
You forgot one:

* Ridiculously excessive and largely unnecessary security procedures when flying internationally, although the 11/9 attacks were all carried out using US domestic flights.
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  #188  
Old 11.09.2008, 17:38
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

Uhmm, despite it couldn't have happened, according to some, but lessons learnt about the weakening of the steel in the towers is being used in the construction of new reactors.

But that's not plausible, so they probably shouldn't have bothered.
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  #189  
Old 11.09.2008, 18:50
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

conspiracy video - compelling stuff.

Americans thrive on chaos, centrally organised
conspiracies is not their thing - requires too much attention to detail. I could well believe however that the date of the attacks was known in advance and that various interest groups did their level best to maximise their profit out of the day

I haven't understood what role WTC7 played in all this - why should anyone want it to blow up?
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  #190  
Old 11.09.2008, 18:56
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

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Not sure what reports you're referencing, but thermate is simply thermite that contains sulfer (sometimes with barium nitrate), which makes it burn hotter.
Yes, and we all know how widely available thermate is, n'est-ce-pas? We're talking about services that couldn't kill an old cigar smoking dude for forty years securing explosives, planting it undetected (do me a favor - next time you go into a skyscraper, try seeing if you can figure out where the load-bearing beams are) during months, securing it so that it doesn't explode either at plane impact or subsequent fire, and actually coordinating the explosion with not one but two plane impacts. Now please entertain me more about this "sulfer (sic)" containing thermate.

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I don't find corroboration for the premise that aircraft aluminum pulverizes on impact.
Oh? Is that so. What in your opinion does happen to it?
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  #191  
Old 11.09.2008, 19:07
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

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I haven't understood what role WTC7 played in all this - why should anyone want it to blow up?
Here's a list of what was in WTC7:
http://www.wtc7.net/background.html

One of the government agencies held documents/evidence of a criminal investigation against some of Bushes associates in an archive at WTC7. Too bad they have been lost.
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  #192  
Old 11.09.2008, 19:13
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

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Yes, and we all know how widely available thermate is, n'est-ce-pas? We're talking about services that couldn't kill an old cigar smoking dude for forty years securing explosives, planting it undetected (do me a favor - next time you go into a skyscraper, try seeing if you can figure out where the load-bearing beams are) during months, securing it so that it doesn't explode either at plane impact or subsequent fire, and actually coordinating the explosion with not one but two plane impacts. Now please entertain me more about this "sulfer (sic)" containing thermate.
Two weeks before the attacks the bomb searching squad (including bomb sniffer dogs) were ordered by mayor Rudy Giuliani to halt their operations at the world trade center.
Shortly after, many office workers were complaining about very loud renovation work that had recently picked up. Also, the inhouse computing centers were experiencing numerous power outages. Of course, the cameras didn't work without power.
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  #193  
Old 11.09.2008, 19:34
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

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Yes, and we all know how widely available thermate is, n'est-ce-pas?
Je ne sais vraiment pas [thanks, google translate]. Perhaps you'd care to enlighten those of us who don't.

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...We're talking about services that couldn't kill an old cigar smoking dude...
That may be who you're talking about, but I'm not suggesting any particular party or parties. Please don't put words in my mouth, nor assume that I am familiar with and subscribe to the specific claims of others (thanks).

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...securing explosives, planting it undetected (do me a favor - next time you go into a skyscraper, try seeing if you can figure out where the load-bearing beams are) during months, securing it so that it doesn't explode either at plane impact or subsequent fire, and actually coordinating the explosion with not one but two plane impacts. Now please entertain me more about thermate.
Gee, you sure make it all sound so hard!

Please do me a favor and look it up yourself, instead of presuming to make me defend every detail of a subject I only offered an opinion on. The DVDs and webbed articles currently available address objections like yours. My posting of my engineer friend's reaction to some DVDs that I haven't even seen myself isn't your license to bait me with an endless string of sardonic challenges with the expectation that I've got nothing better to do than be your errand boy or (in the absence of a life) evening's entertainment.

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Oh? Is that so. What in your opinion does happen to it?
My opinion is all I have to offer, and my opinion is that it would get crushed, crumpled and shredded—but not pulverized. Since you seem convinced that aircraft aluminum pulverizes on impact, perhaps you'd like to go fetch some corroboration.

I'll wait here.
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Last edited by Texaner; 11.09.2008 at 20:49. Reason: punctuation fix
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  #194  
Old 11.09.2008, 19:34
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

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While some seem to think it's all a conspiracy, I do not. I think that the US became lazy and arrogant (both government & citizens). Bin Laden didn't plan for the towers to crash - that was a failure that could not be predicted. But he did want sensation & destruction.
It's worth highlighting that the only reason the planes hit the towers (and the Pentagon) in the first place was because, up until that point, hijackers had never done anything like that. Ergo, standard procedure at the time was (basically) to let them take control of the plane without a struggle so that no-one was hurt in the air.

Nowadays, of course, no group of passengers is ever going to let a hijacker take control of the plane in the first place, which is why a recurrence is pretty much impossible.

It's a guarantee there will be more terrorism in the future involving planes - eg: bombs in luggage, man-portable missiles taking out half a dozen aircraft around Heathrow, etc - but it is exceptionally unlikely there will ever be another case of passenger airliners being used as weapons.
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  #195  
Old 11.09.2008, 19:36
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

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Here's a list of what was in WTC7:
http://www.wtc7.net/background.html

One of the government agencies held documents/evidence of a criminal investigation against some of Bushes associates in an archive at WTC7. Too bad they have been lost.

Love the tone these websites use

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One of the most interesting tenants was then-Mayor Giuliani's Office of Emergency Management, and its emergency command center on the 23rd floor. This floor received 15 million dollars worth of renovations, including independent and secure air and water supplies, and bullet and bomb resistant windows designed to withstand 200 MPH winds. 2 The 1993 bombing must have been part of the rationale for the command center, which overlooked the Twin Towers, a prime terrorist target.
How curious that on the day of the attack, Guiliani and his entourage set up shop in a different headquarters, abandoning the special bunker designed precisely for such an event.
It makes me wonder how conspiracy theorists think people should act.

"Sir there's a major disaster going on, **** it's horrible!"

"Setup the headquarters right there! right in the middle of the disaster zone, because that's the sensible thing to do!"

Retards.
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  #196  
Old 11.09.2008, 19:50
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

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It's worth highlighting that the only reason the planes hit the towers (and the Pentagon) in the first place was because, up until that point, hijackers had never done anything like that. Ergo, standard procedure at the time was (basically) to let them take control of the plane without a struggle so that no-one was hurt in the air.
Why did no fighter jets intercept the planes?
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  #197  
Old 11.09.2008, 20:09
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

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Why did no fighter jets intercept the planes?

let's hear it from you on what should have happened in the perfect world.

I'm sure you have all the facts to hand so you can tell us.

When was radio contact lost? When did someone first realise the plane may have been hijacked? How long for someone to decide jets should be scrambled? How long for someone to contact someone to scramble jets? How long for the jets to scramble? How long for the jets to get there? What the **** do jets do against someone who wants to fly a plane into a building?
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  #198  
Old 11.09.2008, 20:11
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

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Yes, and we all know how widely available thermate is, n'est-ce-pas? We're talking about services that couldn't kill an old cigar smoking dude for forty years securing explosives, planting it undetected (do me a favor - next time you go into a skyscraper, try seeing if you can figure out where the load-bearing beams are) during months, securing it so that it doesn't explode either at plane impact or subsequent fire, and actually coordinating the explosion with not one but two plane impacts.
If I was the owner of the WTC and I was told that somebody had cause to believe that two planes going to crash into it then I might consider wiring the damm thing up so that it falls in a nice heap. "All" you would have to do is hire a firm to come in and place the explosives and have some chaps on duty 24 hours a day with their fingers on a button, doesn't need any coordination.
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Old 11.09.2008, 20:16
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

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let's hear it from you on what should have happened in the perfect world.

I'm sure you have all the facts to hand so you can tell us.

When was radio contact lost? When did someone first realise the plane may have been hijacked? How long for someone to decide jets should be scrambled? How long for someone to contact someone to scramble jets? How long for the jets to scramble? How long for the jets to get there? What the **** do jets do against someone who wants to fly a plane into a building?
I don't know it. Do you?

I mean, it's 4 planes without interception, not just one.
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Old 11.09.2008, 20:20
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

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If I was the owner of the WTC and I was told that somebody had cause to believe that two planes going to crash into it then I might consider wiring the damm thing up so that it falls in a nice heap. "All" you would have to do is hire a firm to come in and place the explosives and have some chaps on duty 24 hours a day with their fingers on a button, doesn't need any coordination.
Which firm do you think is going to take the liability risk of wiring up buildings full of high explosives when they're full of thousands of people ?
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