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  #241  
Old 14.09.2009, 12:03
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

The fact that 9/11 truthers movement is gaining momentum is just ridiculous to me. I like to use a little something called "common sense", and it tells me that the U.S. government could never cover something like that up. It would take a level of competence that they haven't even shown a hint of possessing.

The only devious government act I can entertain the possibility of is them having willfully ignored an event they knew was coming. That would literally have required them to do nothing, so I can sort of buy that if a strong enough case is made for it.
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  #242  
Old 14.09.2009, 12:41
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

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The only devious government act I can entertain the possibility of is them having willfully ignored an event they knew was coming. That would literally have required them to do nothing, so I can sort of buy that if a strong enough case is made for it.

That is the case. There is plenty of forensic evidence for that. So many knew of an impending attack. But the US (intelligence agencies) put a chip on their shoulder and dared anyone to knock it off. Its the magnitude of the damage that took the US by surprise. Afterwards, came the opportunity to use it for political purposes.

But as for the conspiracy theory that whole thing orchestrated by the US itself. PPfff.
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  #243  
Old 14.09.2009, 12:56
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

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That is the case. There is plenty of forensic evidence for that. So many knew of an impending attack. But the US (intelligence agencies) put a chip on their shoulder and dared anyone to knock it off. Its the magnitude of the damage that took the US by surprise. Afterwards, came the opportunity to use it for political purposes.

But as for the conspiracy theory that whole thing orchestrated by the US itself. PPfff.
Yeah spot on.

The one thing that I wonder more than anything else, is how two planes flew into the side of two buildings, then a little while later, three buildings collapsed into neat little piles.

To me, there's obviously quite a lot we don't know, and I don't know why we don't know it.
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  #244  
Old 14.09.2009, 13:02
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

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Yeah spot on.

The one thing that I wonder more than anything else, is how two planes flew into the side of two buildings, then a little while later, three buildings collapsed into neat little piles.

To me, there's obviously quite a lot we don't know, and I don't know why we don't know it.
I think we do! http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7485331.stm
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  #245  
Old 14.09.2009, 13:17
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

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Yeah spot on.

The one thing that I wonder more than anything else, is how two planes flew into the side of two buildings, then a little while later, three buildings collapsed into neat little piles.
Here's an experiment for you: put three cans right next to each other and try to hit two of them with a sledgehammer without causing any damage at all to the third one.
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  #246  
Old 14.09.2009, 13:37
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

These buildings weren't also built in the safest way. Bad construction didn't exactly help.
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  #247  
Old 14.09.2009, 13:38
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

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Here's an experiment for you: put three cans right next to each other and try to hit two of them with a sledgehammer without causing any damage at all to the third one.
Hmmmm. Well for it to be comparable, you'd have to hit two of the cans on their sides, obviously. But, if all three ended up crushed perfectly flat as a result, then I'd certainly be convinced.

I'll try it later.

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  #248  
Old 14.09.2009, 13:45
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

Here's the thing that comes to mind regarding conspiracies involving Tower 7 specifically.

Living in there area of Florida where I did, when there were shuttle take-offs and landings, we'd often get sonic booms from it. These sonic events, which were really not soooo close to our house would make the windows rattle pretty violently in their frames as well as occasionally knock things off the mantle or wall.

Taking that into account and using my (extremely vivid ) imagination, combining that with the knowledge that there were explosions in the other towers... I'm thinking that all of the buildings nearby were shaken up quite a bit.

I'm sure things happened to the building that were not too dissimilar from what happens to structures when there are earthquakes... although not quite so large in scale.

So, I'm thinking that welds broke, bricks and cement developed cracks and whatnot. Combine that with the fires they say happened and you get a greatly weakened structure.

Now, architecturally, I have read that in city centers like that, many of the buildings are designed so that they fall straight down as otherwise, there is a greater risk of damaging their neighboring buildings.


So, here we have a building which was quite close to several explosions, is quite tall itself (I'll have to look but isn't it the 3rd tallest of the WTC buildings?) and has multiple fires within it's own space.


To be honest, I find it amazing that MORE buildings did not collapse.

Of course, that is with my own not-formally-educated view of things.
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  #249  
Old 14.09.2009, 13:50
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

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These buildings weren't also built in the safest way. Bad construction didn't exactly help.
Could conceivably be, I suppose, but....

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The 47-storey third tower, known as Tower Seven, collapsed seven hours after the twin towers.

Investigators are expected to say ordinary fires on several different floors caused the collapse.....

That would make it the first and only steel skyscraper in the world to collapse because of fire.
So that would mean that something that had never happened before in history, happened to three different buildings, with different damage, in the same place, on the same day.

It just seems too unlikely to me, thats all. Just as its too unlikely that the US government was involved in any big, active way. I just don't buy it.
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  #250  
Old 14.09.2009, 13:58
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

http://www.guardian.co.uk/global/200...on-naomi-klein

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That was 9 September 2001. Two days later, Africa's "rendezvous with history" was all but forgotten.
I am not suggesting there was a conspiracy at all, but coincidentally, 9/11 had a huge impact on a big issue at the time. It's a long article, but good reading. I apologise if it's too pinko for your tastes.

History behaves in mysterious ways.
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  #251  
Old 14.09.2009, 14:07
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

As I recall, 9/11 became such a convenient excuse for every failure under the sun.

From missed deadlines, missed revenue projections, missed profits to ALL KINDS of mismanagement.

All of a sudden, a bubble economy that was about to burst found an excuse to burst, and the excuse was conveniently at hand to blame someone else. So take it out on this thing called "terrorism".

The thing that has always bothered me about this thing called "terrorism" is that it is really a non-entity. Terrorism is a tactic anyone can practice. It's not a specific entity. So going to war against "terrorism" has always come across as Newspeak for going to Perpetual War. A war that can never be won, that is certain to be lost.
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  #252  
Old 14.09.2009, 14:12
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

Not lost, but be kept manageable enough for money to be continually pumped into it. You don't think they really need to spend billions to stop a few guys working out of tents? Similarly, the "Drug War" comes to mind.
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  #253  
Old 14.09.2009, 14:15
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

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Hmmmm. Well for it to be comparable, you'd have to hit two of the cans on their sides, obviously. But, if all three ended up crushed perfectly flat as a result, then I'd certainly be convinced.
The buildings fell flat because of a) the type of damage they suffered and b) because that's what they're designed to do.

Which part of why the building fell flat, exactly, do you have difficulty understanding ?

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So that would mean that something that had never happened before in history, happened to three different buildings, with different damage, in the same place, on the same day.
Actually it happened to three buildings with similar design (two of them identical), that all suffered quite similar damage at the same time. Why is it surprising, exactly, that they all suffered the same fate ? I mean, if you shot two people and a third one happened to get hit as well by one of the bullets, would you be "surprised" if all three died ?


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It just seems too unlikely to me, thats all. Just as its too unlikely that the US government was involved in any big, active way. I just don't buy it.
Why is it "unlikely", exactly, that the US government wasn't involved ? At the end of the day, it was just a bunch of blokes who hijacked two planes and flew them into some buildings. Not exactly a convoluted and complex master plan requiring misdirection, infiltration and conspiracy at the highest levels of government.
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  #254  
Old 14.09.2009, 14:51
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

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The buildings fell flat because of a) the type of damage they suffered
And what type was that? Fire? There are similar buildings all over the world, some of them have been on fire, and its never happened before..... ever.

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b) because that's what they're designed to do.
When a skyscraper catches fire, its designed to completely collapse on all of the other residents of the building?

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Actually it happened to three buildings with similar design (two of them identical), that all suffered quite similar damage at the same time. Why is it surprising, exactly, that they all suffered the same fate ?
No they didn't, two were hit by aeroplanes in different places, the other was hit by falling debris.

You don't think that where and how a building is hit, might affect how it falls over or collapses?

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Why is it "unlikely", exactly, that the US government wasn't involved ?
How about this quote.....
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....but to assume that hundreds, if not a thousand or more government employees - officials and hired "guns" - were responsible for 9/11 is just pushing it too far. For me at least.
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it was just a bunch of blokes who hijacked two planes and flew them into some buildings. Not exactly a convoluted and complex master plan
You don't think circumventing the air defences of the United States of America would be a difficult task?

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Here's an experiment for you: put three cans right next to each other.......
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I mean, if you shot two people.......
My mind is open, but you'll need to do better than that.
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  #255  
Old 14.09.2009, 15:05
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

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Not lost, but be kept manageable enough for money to be continually pumped into it. You don't think they really need to spend billions to stop a few guys working out of tents? Similarly, the "Drug War" comes to mind.

No. Lost! In the same way the USSR lost in Afghanistan. They can't keep pumping in money without corrupting the economy. In the end, war is economic.
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  #256  
Old 14.09.2009, 15:08
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

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And what type was that? Fire? There are similar buildings all over the world, some of them have been on fire, and its never happened before..... ever.
Which obviously means it's impossible, right ? I mean nothing ever happens that hasn't happened before, does it ?

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When a skyscraper catches fire, its designed to completely collapse on all of the other residents of the building?
No, when a skyscraper's structure is irreversibly compromised, it's designed to fail in a predictable and (somewhat) controlled manner.

You may have heard about crumple zones in cars. It's a similar principle.

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No they didn't, two were hit by aeroplanes in different places, the other was hit by falling debris.
Perhaps you can expand on why you think the slightly different placings of the aircraft were a significant factor ?

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You don't think that where and how a building is hit, might affect how it falls over or collapses?
Not when the structural failure isn't directly related to the impact, no.

Go make a few piles of shredded paper and flick matches at them. Now ask yourself why you always end up with identical looking piles of ashes regardless of where the matches hit.

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How about this quote.....
What about it ? It has nothing to do with my question (not to mention, he's agreeing with me).

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You don't think circumventing the air defences of the United States of America would be a difficult task?
They didn't "circumvent the air defences of the United States of America", they flew two planes into buildings. What "air defences", exactly, do you think were "circumvented" ? What SOPs regarding hijacked airliners do you think weren't followed ?

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My mind is open, but you'll need to do better than that.
Your mind is so open, your brain has fallen out.
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  #257  
Old 14.09.2009, 15:16
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

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No. Lost! In the same way the USSR lost in Afghanistan. They can't keep pumping in money without corrupting the economy. In the end, war is economic.
Ah, you mean lost as in the government and the people losing. Oh, sure. But the people who are really pulling the strings (the ones getting billion dollar contracts as a result) don't really care about the long-term. They just want their share of the pie for as long as possible. Once everything collapses, they'll be long gone and stinking rich.
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  #258  
Old 14.09.2009, 15:16
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

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Go make a few piles of shredded paper and flick matches at them.


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Your mind is so open, your brain has fallen out.
Well clearly I'm not teetering on the cusp of genius like your good self.

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  #259  
Old 14.09.2009, 15:29
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

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<sigh>

The point is for you to understand why two planes hitting a building in slightly different places (or not actually hitting them at all) can produce the same result.

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Well clearly I'm not teetering on the cusp of genius like your good self.

When you can come up with an argument better than "it's never happened before", let me know.
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  #260  
Old 14.09.2009, 15:42
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

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When you can come up with an argument better than "it's never happened before", let me know.
The point is not to convince you of anything, it doesn't matter to me what you believe, it was just a discussion, and I was expressing an opinion.

You seem to become upset when your arguments are challenged, but its difficult not to when they're regarding tin cans, shooting people, and flicking matches at piles of paper.
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