Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Desperate people do desperate things.

Its not without precedent. For example, it is widely accepted that the Hutu militias in Rwanda ordered that the plane carrying their President be shot down, thereby providing the catalyst that unified and motivated the mobs that slaughtered around 1 million of their fellow countrymen.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide

IF the administration were involved, then they would have been following an age-old recipe. The US people would never have supported Bush in Afghanistan and Iraq if they didn't feel threatened. To feel threatened they needed something tangible. To be tangible it needed to be an event that was substantial and historic. Voila...9/11.

__________________
So sayeth the 'Speed
* I do look like my avatar

Not only threatened, but also something to make people even more patriotic (the two can and often do go hand in hand).

I can't tell you how many times I was called "unpatroitic" and told I should "leave this wonderful free country" because I questioned bombing Afghanistan and if Bin Laden was really even the one behind it. I was looked at as if I had simply announced at a party "Hi, I'm a serial killer who has killed all of your children. You're next!"

I would add to that- The desire for absolute power corrupts absolutely as well.

The Reichstag fire?


I can attest to that. Everyone turned back to Cold War paranoia overnight.

BTW, weren't there other Bin Laden/Al Zawahri self-implication or confessions?

It was worse than Cold War paranoia. It was more like WWII paranoia (and propaganda, too)

I don't recall if there were confessions/self-implications now, honestly. I just remember saying that we didn't have proof that bin Laden was the one behind it, and the action was taken far too quickly and rashly after the attacks. It was as if they were searching for any excuse to start bombing Afghanistan, and this was just a good excuse for them (or they were waiting and planning...)

Regardless of who was at fault, the legacies of 9/11 seems to be:

• A growing state of religious intolerance on all sides, and polarisation of moderates towards extremists.
• Afghanistan and Iraq probably decending into civil war as a result of US style democracy.
• A global media obsessed with "Terrorism" or threat thereof, and lacking integrity.
• Sectarian media increasingly polarised and biased
• A US administration making their own rules and subjecting on the world, and their own citizens, measures that they would quickly denounce if utilised by other nations. Dubya is even seeking his own exemption from the Geneva convention in order to justify torture and secret prisons.
• A US public with sanitised media, not really aware of what or how their troops or the Iraqi public are suffering. You only have to do a search on Youtube using the keyword IED and see that sitting in or hanging around a HumVee is practically a death sentence for any soldier. Call it voyeuristic, call it what you will. I call it the unfortunate reality.

I give it another 3 months before Iraq is either federalised (split up into 3 states) or engulfed in a serious civil war. The "eye-for-an-eye" sectarian revenge process has reached beyond critical mass.

__________________
So sayeth the 'Speed
* I do look like my avatar

There weren't any confessions, quite the opposite - a denial from OBL himself. Shortly after the attacks a "confession tape" was shown, but this was so obviously a fake that it was laughable. Only recently have tape appeared where OBL appears to be taking credit for the attacks.

Yes - leave the land of Freedom. I always find Freedom(tm) a curious concept. I sometimes liked to ask my friends from the US who "bought" the whole freedom as a religion idea why it wasn't possible in a country with freedom for me to be a communist. I mean if I have freedom of speech and supposed freedom of thought, shouldn't I be able to think and express any idea that I want (within reason). My friends would usually give me what appeared to be a scripted answer - yes but communisim is the enemy of Freedom(tm). US citizens never actually get to see visa waiver forms that everyone else has to fill out on entry - the ones that ask a series of unbelievable questions including one that asks if you are a communist. Even though the cold war is over, the question is still there today.

These days Emmanuel Goldstein no longer carries a red flag, he wears a small white hat and sports a beard..

Phos brought up an interesting point that I'd forgotten all about - the Reichstag fire. Here's a link to the Wikipedia article and a small snippet:


Of course, we all know that rest, as they say, is history...

Agreed but to expect tolerance from religion is kind of barking up the wrong tree. The core of major religions is that it's their way or the highway. So to expect tolerance amongst religions is truely wishful thinking.

I guess they were not truely moderates. Extremists in sheep clothing?

Iraq yes Afghanistan NO. I don't recall Afghanistan ever being a peaceful land even before US ever got involved there. The place seems to be cursed. I think during Buddhist days it was probably ok. Then the extremelly violent barbaric Islamic armies invaded the land and the place has never been the same again. Later the place obviously became a playground for Russia, Pakistan and America. Now America, Pakistan...maybe Iran (minus Russia kind of). So the place is almost doomed for eternity...more of same
Yes the right leaning media is overly obsessed but on the same token the left leaning media likes to stick it's head in the sand. So there is blatant bias on all sides. Btw there is no such thing as unbiased media. If you find any news outlet that is truely unbiased then do let me know I read all kind of left and right leaning sites in the hope of finding atleast 5% of unbiased truth.

I 100% disagree with torture of any kind and all forms of violence but I will tell you one thing-->torture has always occured in conflicts (even in non-conflict situations) and it always will. I will bet my life on it.


Yes I watch all kinds of stuff to be aware of reality. Truely sickening how humans can fall so low (on all sides). Based on human past should we really be surprised?

Yes you should. Having lived in various parts of the globe I would say that west values "freedom of speech" most ( I am not talking about Bush and his merry men). So we need to make sure that it stays that way. For example you could go out in most western countries and shout that Jesus was a _ _ some explicit word_ _. You would still walk off in one piece. Try doing something similar in other parts of the world and you would be killed in no time. So yes I understand your frustration but do apreciate what we have here in the west. This coming from someone who is not of western roots.

Btw Mark do you prefer communism to capitalism? Innocent question.

Sure I understand that we have more freedoms than other places - it just sticks in my throat when people claim that they are "free" as if it is some sort of absolute, or the implication that they have freedom, and therefore other people do not. I'm sure you know what I'm getting at.

Actually no I don't, but I'll still maintain that in a "free" society someone could choose to be a communist if they want to. I find the intolerance of communism a huge fly in the ointment of freedom(tm).

Anyway, we are getting off the track a little here - we were supposed to be discussing aspects of the September 11 attacks that don't add up.

Back to topic:

No: "Loose Change" did not convince me there was/is a conspiracy.

No: "Ludicrous Diversion" the 7/7 London Bombing conspiracy - or more accurately cover-up film convinced me even less -
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4...ed&hl=undefined


But Alex Jones' "Terror Sorm" has really got me thinking.
It's long - nearly 2 hours - but more compelling watching than whatever you were going to watch on TV tonight:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...72757566726569
It's much harder to ignore the conspiracy argument after watching.

Here an odd thing too: we all call it 9/11 - but in British English it would be 11/9 - the day always comes befor ethe month in BE and 9/11 is the 9th of November. But London's bombing were on 7/7 - means the same in US and British English. Convenient, eh? Or is there more to it than coincidence...

Thanks for those tips - my mate is downloading a better quality version of Terror Storm for me. He said that the edonkey links for a medium res and a high res version are out there [ed2k]. I'll let you know when I've watched it.

It's a shame that Loose Change took some very good points and the surrounded them in some crazy stuff - just makes people not want to give any thought to the parts they touched on which DO bear further examination.

I know that this is technically off-topic, but I didn't want to start a whole new thread for it, and it does serve as important background info for some of the stuff we have discussed here - Rolling Stone magazine have just done what appears to be quite a thorough and well-reseached piece on illegal election fraud in the US 2004 elections, with a focus on Ohio. They list their sources as well. Some might say the tinfoil hat brigade are at it again, but they seem to have amased quite a lot of evidence. True or not, it scary to think how much power is vested in those individuals responsible for running the elections in their areas. Anyway, have a read for yourselves... [rollingstone.com]

And 911 is the US version of 999....

Now I need to make the time to watch your link. Hate spending two hours at the computer to watch something, but this seems well worth it.

Now I really need to keep that tin foil hat icon safely tucked away. I shouldn't read that, you know - but you also know me and know that I will read it

Watched "Loose Change" last night. Interesting, - theres definitely a lot that doesn't add up. Although I believe that one of the main problems is the volume of oral history and opinion floating around. In the wake of such a massive trauma, people are easliy confused, even just minutes later, about exactly what happened. They would do well to disregard such testimony and stick with physical evidence and things they can really prove or disprove.

And as someone already mentioned, some excellent questions mixed in with some other conspiracy-theory craziness, which kind of takes the edge off it. Speaking of which ...

... talking of dates and number play, things spelled backwards, written in windings etc, belongs rather in the Nostradamus branch of inquiry than the errr... serious one. In my humble opinion.

Oh, it doesn't mean anything to me, except that the people doing it picked dates with number sequences that are easily turned into slogans.

That's actually why I refuse to call the attacks on September 11th anything but just that. I never refer to them as "9/11". Too pop culture, too much martyrdom.

I think I have brought this up before:

Top marks AdFab - you started on this thread with quite a lot of skepticism, but you turned up an excellent gem with Terror Storm. By sticking to history and the facts as they've been widely reported and accepted they build a powerful case, avoiding the temptation to trap themselves into wild theories that can be easily disputed (as in the case of Loose Change).

I especially enjoyed the first part which builds a strong case for state sponsored terrorism as a normal state of affairs in the last 100 years (and the rest of history). This argument in itself is sheer simplicity and is so contrary to the currently held belief that it is almost frightening. Allow me to demonstrate. Ask a whole lot of people whether they beleive that governments, and not just governments from bad countries, but our governments have killed their own citizens and destroyed their own property as a pretext for war. I would say that most people would simply answer "no, that's crazy, why would they do that?"

But the facts of history tell a very different story. This is not crazy nut cases, this is clear documentation, usually which comes out years after the event that lies were told "in the national interest". What was previously a conspiracy theory suddenly becomes fact, but since so much time has passed, nobody cares anymore, it's just a lesson of history - which we then promptly ignore when the same situations come up again!

I believe that one day, when we are all probably very old, the truth will be told. Documents will be leaked or declassified, and then the truth will stand as clear as day.

Another angle to that film which I found interesting was the examination of the London train bombings. Wow! Now we turn things on their head. Now for the brits this hits very close to home, will they have the courage to investigate and ask questions? Since it was eventually dismissed as not having anything to do with AQ, I never considered that there was much motive, but the timing before the elections was odd, and it would be some time before AQ was let off the hook - but the damage was done, the fear was created, and it served its purpose.

I mean we all remember how that Brazilian guy was shot repeatidly in the head on the underground. Remember how they said he was wearing a jacket, then they admitted he wasn't. The story changed a lot and I don't think there were many people who bought the constantly changing story about how he died. Remember the scandal it made at the time? All these types of things are clues to something being botched. I also didn't know that there was a drill at the same time for exactly the same scenario as the real thing - same idea as in 9/11 - a drill distracts everybody and gives the real perpetrators and alibi if caught. Or the fact that the bus which exploded was the only bus in the entire fleet ordered by police to divert on that day. The point where it exploded wasn't even on it's route!

Has anyone else researched or validated any of the points raised in Terror Storm, specifically with regard to the London train bombings? The stuff about the brazilian guy being killed I didn't have to research, because I followed it at the time and it stank to high heaven. The other stuff was new to me though.

I think the other thing that made Terror Storm stand out is the list of very credible witnesses this guy has put together. No crack pots, but actual former MI5 agents (probably living in hiding now) who have broken the official secrets act and talked about stuff. Former presidential advisors and high ranking officials coming out and telling us stuff they were involved in.

Absolutely superb. I urge all of you to watch it without delay. I have a 1.7GB slightly higher resolution version. If there's enough interest I'll ask my mate to put it somewhere so your mates can download it easily (PM me).

Just a few links for anyone wanting to do some followup from Terror Storm. I found that the wikipedia page for Terror Storm has been deleted (presumably because it was considered advertising for the film), you can retrieve the old one from the google cache here. There are links to various things mentioned in the film, so it is a good starting point. You can also look up the wikipedia entry for the USS Liberty incident [wikipedia] if you like.

I've got a small film recommendation. If you didn't see The Fog of War [imdb.com] when it hit cinemas in 2003, try to get the DVD. The film is basically an interview with Robert S. McNamara, former US Secretary of Defense. Highly recommended - you can see a trailer at the above link. Great soundtrack as well, I'll have to find that somewhere.