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  #121  
Old 23.09.2006, 01:32
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

What is with all the "he said, she said" drama between Bush and Musharraf recently? Are they just playing all of us?
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  #122  
Old 23.09.2006, 01:36
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

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What is with all the "he said, she said" drama between Bush and Musharraf recently? Are they just playing all of us?
Off-topic for this thread.
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  #123  
Old 23.09.2006, 11:25
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

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I believe that one day, when we are all probably very old, the truth will be told. Documents will be leaked or declassified, and then the truth will stand as clear as day.
I'm not so sure about that. We're still waiting for the truth to come out about the Kennedy assassination.
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  #124  
Old 24.09.2006, 01:03
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

Seems like some interesting news surfacing.

Quote:
PARIS, France (CNN) -- A report that Osama bin Laden is dead has set off a flurry of denials from U.S., French and Pakistani officials, who say the newspaper report citing French intelligence cannot be independently confirmed.
Article here [cnn.com].

Raises an interesting point in all this. In order to continue to control the people an enemy is needed. One who can't be seen and waits around every corner. Without this there would be no fear. Since OBL has been elevated to the level of the devil himself, how would his death bode for the "war on terror"?

I guess the spin doctors will try to elevate the next in line and plaster his photo all over the place. Think about OBL as a brand - they've spent signficant amounts of money building his brand, it wouldn't be very helpful if he were just to die... But they've also built AQ as a brand, so they'll fall back on that for a while, it will just be faceless for a while before they can build up the next leader.

But one thing is for certain - the spin doctors will win in the end, maybe we'll need another "event" to keep the momentum going post-OBL?
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  #125  
Old 24.09.2006, 13:35
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

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In order to continue to control the people an enemy is needed. <snip> Without this there would be no fear.
Interesting. I think this is a conclusion you have drawn, based upon conjecture of how an invisible world government would think and act. If there is an entity such as you imagine, you may very well be right in your second guess of their plans. Although I understand what you are pointing out in your statements, and even partly agree on some of their dynamics, there are some foundations on which your statements are based which I will now try to yank out. But unlike the WTC buildings, I don't think the construction of your postings will necessarily collapse.

(Unfortunately, I have to leave in half an hour and will not be able to post a long discussion. I'll have to chop-chop and revisit later. I'm aware this may be a bad idea.)

I watched "Terror Storm" and have read a number of conspiracy theories. I've hung around tin-foil hat people, and have even tried a few on myself. I enjoyed watching the X-Files. I've read a few Noam Chomsky books, and have met a few powerful people and watched them operate. I've met and candidly had revealing conversations with people in the intelligence community, and overall, I think I've gained a little bit of understanding of how the world works and operates.

Conspiracies happen all the time. Conspiracies occur whenever two or more people agree to work together to achieve some common objective. Sometimes, conspiracies are simple, sometimes they are complex.

Whenever I travel to Asia, I often become keenly aware of the presence or the concept of some overhanging entity that controlled every event that takes place. I get this in Europe and the US as well, though with different characteristics of the entity, and with different effects. In Asia, it translates to a deference to one's ancestor, culture or some god. In Europe, it translates into a deference to one's government, society and culture. In the US, it's more of a deference to God and the Universe and less on anything else. I know some of you are uncomfortable with this topic, but regardless of whether or not you agree with it, it is factually a part of human thought and is a factor in the thoughts and actions of people. It is part of the 9/11 story.

The reason I bring this up is that your perspective of this has a lot of bearing on how you perceive the events of 9/11, and how the world operates in general. The Terror Storm hypothesis, along with a majority of conspiracy theories, are based on the the belief that some diabolical government entity have control of all or the majority of the events that occurred. And if you come from this persuasion, it's hard to believe how anyone else cannot see this. And when a member like Mary posts:
Quote:
I don't believe in any of the conspiracy theories regarding 9.11
It seems like an outrageous statement. But it is actually a wise and valid opinion

And the next question is often: How can American's be so stupid? I think Poshkosh grazed on the American perspective earlier:
Quote:
your latest post proves a very important point: conspiracy assumes everybody (on the plot side, at least) are working efficiently together. but this never happens (except in our local chapter of the free masons )
I would like to embellish that further with "(except in an episode of the X-files)".

I think the bulk of Americans come from the perspective the government is just too organizationally incompetent to pull something as complex as what these conspiracy theories propose. Well, at least I do. It's possible to make it appear like the government had control all this time through the postmortem twisting of the facts of an event. And this is really what most of this looks like. And it is true that the government engages in a lot of postmortem conspiracies.

But there are entities that are more potent than the government, though I doubt they would announce themselves. If one wishes to follow this situation and watch it unfold, it's much easier to understand if you look at the dynamics on the board instead focusing any particular individual entity. The individual entities are interchangeable. Dubya may be replaced by Hillary, then by Dubya's brother. OBL may be replaced by his son, or Nasrallah. Whatever, it's part of a story that has been unfolding for thousands of years.
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  #126  
Old 24.09.2006, 14:37
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

Hi Phos,

Thanks for the post. Yes it is true that it is easy to dismiss conspiracy theories, and doing so does seem like the wise thing to do. Until history (of the future) comes along and tells us that we were lied to. A lie is a lie, and we've heard an awful lot of them recently. So would someone's acceptance of the official story be a wise thing? I can't say if it is wise or not, but I think everybody should inform themselves and do their own research. To always accept the governments story is to place blind faith in organisations that have not proven themselves trustworthy.

I'm not someone to swallow every conspiracy theory, but I do find myself doubting the official story sometimes - I doubted that shooting of an innocent man by the police in the London train bombings, and as the story kept changing I doubted it even more.

I think the most dangerous thing we can do is to stop questioning. When the environment turns like this then corrupt people can get away with an awful lot. Access to information is key. If the internet had been around in Nazi Germany would Hitler have managed to dupe the people to the extent that he did - probably not! Ditto for the US elections - they say that abuses of the system have been happening in every election, the only difference is that the internet has been around for last two US elections, giving rise to "crazy" conspiracy theories about irregularities. Is "conspiracy theory" the umbrella term that we use to try to crush investigative journalism or free thinking, just as we use the term "terrorist" to crush those that present an alternative view. Language was very much a part of Orwell's world in 1984, and nothing is truer today...

As for the section about conspiracies being difficult to organise, and therefore improbable. I don't really agree. Let's take Enron. Organised by a few people, affected many. Prior to it all coming out it would have been a conspiracy, and afterwards it was an investigation. I could go on - watergate, etc. At which point did they change from a conspiracy to an event which is treated as an investigation?

Think of the example of the terrorist bombings of Iran in the 50's (operation Ajax). Now we have declassified documents which show that the CIA and Mi6 did it to overthrow a democratically elected leader. So now what was a conspiracy is suddenly historical record. Check the wikipedia entry - it's not disputed. So those who think we are all crazy, please go and read that page before making a statement that you trust your government never to cover anything up. How many agents did it take to machine-gun the mosque or bomb the homes of religious leaders? Probably just a handful. Who had to know? Also not many.

As I watched how the the CIA had carried out these operations I cast my mind back to a significant turning point in the Iraq situation. Remember when that mosque was bombed. We all knew the country would sink into sectarian violence. How many people would it take the bomb the mosque? Who would do such a thing. Anyone who profits from the current situation, and that list of people doesn't just include terrorists. No matter how crazy you think I am, you have to admit, especially when considering operation Ajax, that the possibility exists.

We all remember that incident in Iraq, remember when those British soldiers were caught in Iraq in plain clothes shooting at people in the markets. The police caught them and locked them up, only to have the British army storm the jail to free them (busting the wall of the jail in the process and freeing many other prisoners). Did we ever get a satisfactory explanation as to what these soliders (presumably special forces) we up to, and why they were shooting people in a public place?

The most amusing part is all there are many examples of extremely suspicious behaviour in even the last few years. We don't get a proper explanation, and it somehow gets forgotten. But anyone reading this will remember all these events I've been talking about - didn't it make you just the slightest bit curious after you heard them, and what was the follow up? Was there any? But we all forgot to follow up because we were too busy chasing the next bit of unimportant news
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  #127  
Old 24.09.2006, 22:17
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

No one can dispute that clandestine actions are carried out with diabolical intentions. These are, by definition, conspiracies. But there is a tendency for conspiracy theorists to allude to some invisible central planning organization that orchestrate all such events. The thesis is often that we live in a world that is controlled, manipulated and governed by an extrememly sophisticated control apparatus that is capable of doing whatever it wishes. On almost all of these theories, the best that can be offered up is circumstantial and inferred evidence.

There is a widely held belief that the opposite is true - we live in a world that is out of control. Disparate and autonomous entities operate on their own, taking advantage of any and every opportunity to advance its interests. Many Americans subscribe to the point of view that this is the reality that all governments struggle to subdue.

Most governments struggle just to maintain a perception that they are in control. When they are not able to maintain the perception, questions of their validity quickly surface. People inevitably question the reason for the government's existence.

In this illustration, I can see how a government with very little control of the situation may actually relish conspiracy theories, and even foster them. Not only is it great disinformation, it even embues them with a certain aura of mystique.

I'd like to throw out a Confucianist thought on learning about missions such as operation Ajax: Rather than an affirmation of some all-powerful secret government entity, such things bespeaks of the lost of control by any government.

It's interesting that people would rather choose to believe some government is looking out after them, rather than facing the realization that nobody is in control of anything.
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  #128  
Old 27.09.2006, 15:38
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

It's been a while (well a few days) since I've had time to come back to this thread. I've just finished watching a film called "9/11 Press for Truth".




I can highly recommend this film, as the least "disruptive" of all the films we've reviewed so far. The production quality is very high and takes a much softer approach than the other films.

It follows the story of four widows of the Sep 11 attacks. They are all from New Jersey so they were dubbed the "Jersey Girls". They started to do their own research because they wanted answers. Slowly they managed to reach out to the families of other victims and form a group to start getting some political clout. Prior to this point the administration had been resisting an investigation, but the families managed to bring enough pressure to bear to make it happen.

But the story gets more interesting. At first the investigation seemed to be rigged by people with conflicts of interest. By now the families had more press attention and were able to get Kissinger fired as the lead investigator. They never manage to get the commission to ask the questions they want ask, and are ultimately dissatisfied. But the do manage to pressure the administration into backflips and declassifications of documents.

Then they discover the timelines project at http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/ run by Paul Thompson and things really start to get cooking. I've mentioned these timelines earier in this thread and encouraged people to explore them. Nobody gave any feedback, so I guess nobody wanted to discover this amazing resource. But anyway, the film spends a lot of time covering the work of Paul Thompson and helping others to "connect the dots". You see, these pieces of information are all out there, but unless they are connected in some way the story (or in some cases lack of a story) does not become apparent.

In terms of what is in this film that isn't in the others, we have a bit of a look at Bin Laden's miraculous escape (several times) across Afgahnistan, before he walked effortlessly away from Tora Bora which was surrounded on three (not four) sides. There's also a lot of information about the money to the 911 hijackers coming from the head of the IIS (Pakistan secret service). Just for background, the IIS was used as a staging point for the money that originally funded Bin Laden when then US was helping them to fight against the former Soviet Union.

On the whole I feel this is a film that could easily make mainstream television and be shown to a wider audience. There's no missing planes, no explosions of buildings, just widows asking tough questions that people don't want to answer. Think of it more as a documentary of the events of 2001 to 2006, rather than a documentary of that fateful day.

You can watch a low-res version of the film over at google video, or if you'd prefer a high res version you can give you mate with emule this link. Update: the full version of the film has been removed by google. There's just a preview now. Could have been due to copyright issues. Alternatively if you'd like it, send me a PM
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  #129  
Old 16.10.2006, 12:59
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

having watched "Press for Truth", I have to say that whilst these ladies (certainly the four main people [so-called "Jersey Girls"] wanting more answers) do have an agenda but it's not hidden and not politically-saturated.

The outcome? The overwhelming fact that certain answers have been given (not many) and certain questions have been brushed-over and swept to one side.

This documentary is worth watching both if you're a conspiracist or a believer.
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  #130  
Old 19.10.2006, 12:34
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

Apparently SwissRe has won their WTC case - thus in insurance terms, the terrorist attack was a single event.

Interesting that it took nearly 5 years to fight this out - and means payout is much lower (but still a lot).
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  #131  
Old 19.10.2006, 13:22
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

Yes I saw the news as well. For those wondering what all this is about:

Larry Silverstein took over the lease of the twin towers just six weeks before the event. He also took out a specific terrorism policy on the property. He then sued the insurance companies to claim double the amount of his policy, claiming that each plane was a separate act of terrorism and therefore he could claim twice.

He was sucessful up to today, but looks like he's finally lost on appeal.

An analogy:

You buy a house for 1 million. You take out a specific policy against bombing. A couple of weeks later two bombs go off in the house within an hour of each other. You claim this as two separate events and collect 2 million. Then the government helps you with the removal of the rubble, cleaning of the site, etc. and even to assist you with plans to rebuild on the site. You are very happy because the house you had bought was actually very old and full of asbestos problems anyway. At some point in the future people wonder what a sweet deal this was an start to ask questions. Luckily for you the government made sure that all the rubble from the house was removed and destroyed and that no forensic investigation was or could later be conducted to determine information about the bombing. Sounds really crazy doesn't it? That could never happen...
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  #132  
Old 19.10.2006, 13:33
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivo...C_2001_attacks

Look for references of "Ladder 6" and "Engine 39" - if you can find it, there is a documentary that was on British TV a while back called "The Miracle of Stairway B" - it's in no way politically-charged; merely a testament to the firefighters and other rescue personnel who risked (and many lost) their lives in the towers.

Heartwarming.
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  #133  
Old 31.10.2006, 17:15
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

Here's an interesting tidbit starting to make the rounds on Youtube:

Rumsfeld saying that the plane was shot down over Pennsylvania
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  #134  
Old 18.12.2006, 03:30
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Quote:
I I enjoyed watching the X-Files. I've read a few Noam Chomsky books, and have met a few powerful people and watched them operate. I've met and candidly had revealing conversations with people in the intelligence community, and overall, I think I've gained a little bit of understanding of how the world works and operates.

Conspiracies happen all the time. Conspiracies occur whenever two or more people agree to work together to achieve some common objective. Sometimes, conspiracies are simple, sometimes they are complex.

Whenever I travel to Asia, I often become keenly aware of the presence or the concept of some overhanging entity that controlled every event that takes place. I get this in Europe and the US as well, though with different characteristics of the entity, and with different effects. In Asia, it translates to a deference to one's ancestor, culture or some god. In Europe, it translates into a deference to one's government, society and culture. In the US, it's more of a deference to God and the Universe and less on anything else. I know some of you are uncomfortable with this topic, but regardless of whether or not you agree with it, it is factually a part of human thought and is a factor in the thoughts and actions of people. It is part of the 9/11 story.

The reason I bring this up is that your perspective of this has a lot of bearing on how you perceive the events of 9/11, and how the world operates in general. The Terror Storm hypothesis, along with a majority of conspiracy theories, are based on the the belief that some diabolical government entity have control of all or the majority of the events that occurred. And if you come from this persuasion, it's hard to believe how anyone else cannot see this. And when a member like Mary posts:

It seems like an outrageous statement. But it is actually a wise and valid opinion

And the next question is often: How can American's be so stupid? I think Poshkosh grazed on the American perspective earlier:

I would like to embellish that further with "(except in an episode of the X-files)".

I think the bulk of Americans come from the perspective the government is just too organizationally incompetent to pull something as complex as what these conspiracy theories propose. Well, at least I do. It's possible to make it appear like the government had control all this time through the postmortem twisting of the facts of an event. And this is really what most of this looks like. And it is true that the government engages in a lot of postmortem conspiracies.

But there are entities that are more potent than the government, though I doubt they would announce themselves. If one wishes to follow this situation and watch it unfold, it's much easier to understand if you look at the dynamics on the board instead focusing any particular individual entity. The individual entities are interchangeable. Dubya may be replaced by Hillary, then by Dubya's brother. OBL may be replaced by his son, or Nasrallah. Whatever, it's part of a story that has been unfolding for thousands of years.
Wowawiwa
you talked to intel? This would make me laugh, then I think of the Lebanese, the Palestinians, those who died of every belief, colour and social class in the towers. It's an easy formula 'Empirialism' those in power will do whatever they can to maintain it. They even factor the number of dead it will cost and the worth of a life in dollars.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/17/op...pagewanted=all
Maybe you should talk to someone who knows.... You been watching too much X-Files- stick to Chomsky. I'm waiting for the cold war restart. Who is Muqtada al-Sadr? http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...aq/al-sadr.htm Who are the people who will weild intellectual power?

While Muqtada's influence is growing among many poor and marginalized Shi‘ite, it is doubtful that he can continue his rebellion indefinitely. Muqtada's isolation among the religious establishment, his inconsistency and inexperience, the resentment he engenders among the people of Najaf because of the hardships his rebellion has brought, as well as the balance of military force in favor of the interim government all disadvantage him. Both the interim government and multinational forces realize that they cannot allow Muqtada to operate in defiance of the order they seek to impose. It is imperative that Muqtada be neutralized either through military force or through co-optation into the political process. Failing to do so will only cause chaos.
the Iranian leadership is concerned about the rise of Najaf to its pre-Saddam glory as the leading center of Shi‘ite seminaries and scholarship that would diminish the role of the Shi‘ite center in Qum whose leaders provide the religious underpinnings for the Iranian regime. By empowering Muqtada al-Sadr, the Iranian leadership can keep Iraqi politicians and religious figures occupied with sorting out their own house. The threat to the Islamic Republic's religious legitimacy is delayed.
http://www.meforum.org/article/655
Nimrod Raphaeli is a senior analyst at the Middle East Media Research Institute. He spent almost thirty years at the World Bank.

Last edited by evilshell; 18.12.2006 at 06:47.
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  #135  
Old 19.12.2006, 22:34
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

I am sorry everyone-I must apologize for my previous reply. I get very frustrated with the whole 9/11 thing. Shortly after George W. Bush was elected I was on air on a CSpan phone in. I asked if Bush would go to war with Iraq now that Bush had been elected, and could we expect oil prices to rise. I was told "Yes" and the reasons why illustrated. In fact Bush tried at least twice to whip up enthusiasm before 9/11 with excuses like border incursion, no fly zones etc., but couldn't get the Europeans to go along. There will always be hotheads with weapons, but intelligence and diplomacy should keep them at bay. With 9/11 intelligence sweemed to be out to lunch; despite the warnings.
Over a year ago I got on CSPan on and asked "don't you think that it might be a problem giving power to the Shiites in Iraq when Iran is just next door"? I was told "No, they are all Muslims and are very tolerant of each others religion just like the Prostestant and Catholics". I
thought of Northern Ireland.
I am obviously biased. I've just been watching Joseph Biden, whose views I really respect. He hinted at Bush's last warning that the Saudis (with whom the Bush family has strong links) may need to arm the Sunnis if the US forces withdrew. When you cut through all the political rhetoric it just seems so easy to see the truth, yet there are all these crazy experts around. Scott Ritter , the former UN arms inpector was adament that there were no WMD's but everyone thinks that he is crazy and anyway he had to shut up when they sewed him up with the underage girl thing.
So sorry everyone, I am biased, that is obvious. I think my views are often that of the common layman, which are not always that intelligent.
Like most people I hate violence and bloodshed irrespective of race or culture.
I learn when people challenge my views. I should also remember that what I say can negatively affect others. 'A little knowledge is a dangerous thing in the hands of the ignorant" is that the saying?
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Old 22.12.2006, 21:22
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

Quote:
The Neo-conservatives are an interesting bunch. A major theme of their politics is radical capitalism. Most of them studied under Leo Strauss, a German born Jew who was the Political Science Professor at the University of Chicago. He is credited as the intellectual source of neo-conservatism. Many of GBW's cabinet members were his students. Interesting thing about Leo Straus is his endorsement of some of Socrates' philosophy on politics. Among them, the concept of the Noble Lie. If you google "Leo Stauss Noble Lie neoconservative", it might just make you say "Aha!"
If you haven't seen it already, I would strongly suggest watching the 3 part BBC series "The Power of Nightmares: The rise of the politics of fear"

Lo-res google vids
http://video.google.com/videosearch?...+of+Nightmares

Torrent link (hopefully better quality, I'm getting it atm)
http://www.mininova.org/tor/401752

I found it very well made, documenting the rise of what became the Neo-conservatives and the Islamic fundamentalist movement (specifically AQ) at similar times, and offering some intruiging views on the events leading up to 9/11 over the preceeding decades and the involvements of the pricncipal players in the whole scheme.

The series revolves around Leo Strauss, his views and his well known students, Ayman Al-Zawahiri, Al Qaida's "No.2" and why he got pi**ed off, not to mention Osama as Best Supporting Actor.

It hope it's not viewed as OT. Rather it provides an excellent backdrop to frame the events of that day.
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Old 22.12.2006, 21:43
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

Re Spanky: "The Power of Nightmares: The rise of the politics of fear"

I have just been listening to Voice of America in Farsi. Nichlas Burns underseceratary for foreign affairs was being interviewed live. He said that a resolution for sanctions against Iran would be passed tonight with Russia and China on board. This suprised me as Russia and China have been signing big money contracts with Iran I looked this up on line, the sanctions are only supposed to be to control technology related to the Iranian nuclear program, but he did not make this clear. Ordinary Iranians could call in and talk to him ( via a translator) some asked why the US didn't take Military action to topple the regime. He deliberatly danced around the question, leaving the viewer to ponder what was on the cards.

To me this is Politics of Fear, in that either there is more than what he hear in the West on the cards, or it is already in the works.
If it is the truth i.e. it is not just sactions for Nuclear, what pressure was brought to bear for Russia and China to sign this?
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Old 23.12.2006, 09:14
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

Ok I found some decent torrents for these, but can't edit my original post

The Power of Nightmares: Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

and by decent, I mean >5Mb/s
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  #139  
Old 23.12.2006, 21:03
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

Thanks Spanky!
I hooked this up to the big screen, it was be the Xmas highlight- I'm such a nerd. The whole family is watching, I have emailed it to friends, some in prominent positions, Govt, politics, University profs etc., so thanks again. Good old BBC. I am suggesting that PBS/ WMHT air it.

p.s. Some is a little glossed over, it is more involved e.g. Nasser and american oil companies and the debacle of the US, the shah and Iran. I've only watched the first part and find it educationally very important.
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  #140  
Old 09.02.2007, 02:21
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Re: 9/11 - nearly 5 years on

On Thursday, Alex Jones posted a new and thought-provoking article on his site:
Ground Zero EMT: We Were Told Building 7 Was to Be "Pulled"

A New Jersey EMT has gone public on how emergency workers were told that Building 7 was going to be "pulled," before a 20 second demolition countdown broadcast over radio preceded its collapse. The ground zero rescue worker also blows the whistle on how he witnessed multiple underground support columns of the WTC towers that had been severed before the buildings imploded.

Article here
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