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  #61  
Old 09.02.2011, 10:45
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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Didnt Sikhism orginally split off Islam while absorbing many Hinduistic concepts. Do Sikhs believe in Abraham?
Try this:

Wikipedia reference-linkSikhism
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  #62  
Old 09.02.2011, 10:53
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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What is Judaism previous version of?
According to this, either animism or Islam.
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  #63  
Old 09.02.2011, 11:09
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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According to this, either animism or Islam.
Well, not Islam, I can assure you. Non-fundamental Muslims would tell you that Islam is younger than Christianity. I would assume a fair mix of a number of different religions from the area where Judaism developed, with this new idea about a simple set of rules and monothestic view.

Back On Topic though, what on earth do you think made Cameron start to blather like a freaking idiot?
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  #64  
Old 09.02.2011, 11:12
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

The rise of the EDL.
Why on earth are they encouraging segregation via academic schools though? Creationists schools and Islamic schools are hardly the way forward- and will make things much worse.
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  #65  
Old 09.02.2011, 11:51
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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Back On Topic though, what on earth do you think made Cameron start to blather like a freaking idiot?
Oh, sure...when someone starts telling things as they are, he's labeled an idiot !


If you admire those so-called cultural, traditional and Islamic moral 'values' (conflicting values, with no regard to even the most basic civil liberties, btw), why not move to Sudan or Saudi Arabia ? I'm sure you'll feel right at home...
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Old 09.02.2011, 11:57
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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Well, not Islam, I can assure you. Non-fundamental Muslims would tell you that Islam is younger than Christianity.
I don't care...

If a Muslim comes into MY house, he's going to show respect for me and my rules, and not start imposing his !

Take it or leave it...multiculturalism has only caused tensions between the local population and immigrants !

Multikulti as a policy has FAILED !

Last edited by MathNut; 09.02.2011 at 12:09. Reason: What is it with the mutilated quote tags anyway?
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  #67  
Old 09.02.2011, 12:25
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

Thanks to both of the intrepid codebreakers on Page 1. In recognition of this service to the forum, I've extended your EF subscriptions by two months each.

I decided to keep the thread instead of deleting it, as others may still have an interest in discussing the topic. As always, keep it civil, on-topic, etc. - great job so far.
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  #68  
Old 09.02.2011, 12:50
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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I don't care...

If a Muslim comes into MY house, he's going to show respect for me and my rules, and not start imposing his !


Take it or leave it...multiculturalism has only caused tensions between the local population and immigrants !

Multikulti as a policy has FAILED !

Which is of course what Christians did in Africa, South America and all over the world! Crusades, Inquisitions, and the kind of 'I'll save your child if you convert to my God' kind of Mission work. But I agree, 2 wrong do not make a right. Fact is, there are all sorts of Muslims all over the world- as there are all sorts of Christians- and neither are all fundamentalists. This 'en bloc' hatred of Islam is not helping, on the contrary.
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Old 09.02.2011, 12:51
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

I don't see what alternative to multiculturalism a modern state can offer. So long as someone pays taxes and obeys the law, why on earth should he not be allowed to live as he sees fit, speak as he sees fit, think as he sees fit and bring up his children as he sees fit?

The problem with the application of multiculturalism in practice is that too many people think it's about bending over backwards to accommodate everyone and his dog. It isn't. It's about allowing people to live according to their own customs and conscience, enabling them to access services to which they are entitled and for which they have probably paid, and, most importantly, minding your own business.

Multiculturalism isn't about folk dances in community centres, white women wearing saris and bangles or abstaining from lunch because you share your office with a Muslim. Multiculturalism, rather, is about treating Mrs Iqbal with as much (or as little) respect as you would treat Mrs Stanshall down the road, regardless of the fact that she chooses to wear a veil, doesn't speak any English and won't let her children eat your biscuits because she can't be sure they're halal.

In a nutshell, multiculturalism is about live and let live. It isn't always easy to accept that people around you see the world in a profoundly different way to you, to accept that God, family and honour might play a more important role to them than individual liberty, equality or 'fair play', but, if we have any hope of co-existing with people from places as culturally distinct from our towns and suburbs as it is possible to get without leaving the planet, we must accept it.

That is not to say that there is no place for education, for encouraging "integration" (whatever that means), for inviting our neighbours to learn English. But we shouldn't insist on forcing our cultural values upon those who are new to such things. What right do we have to do so, anyway?

Above all, though, multiculturalism must include a requirement to obey the law: the same law, for all. The ethnicity or cultural origin of a murderer or wife beater is irrelevant - a criminal is a criminal in any language, and there are certain standards of behaviour which are expected in our part of the world, just as there are certain standards of behaviour which are expected elsewhere (and which may not always be to our taste).

Short of committing crimes, though, why should we not allow people to live how they want?
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  #70  
Old 09.02.2011, 12:54
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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Muslims cover a huge spectrum- from very varied backgrounds and cultures. Just like Christians. Many Christians do have fundamentalist beliefs- heard of Creationists? And many do not. Some believe in Saints, some do not. Some believe the bread does turn into the body of Christ, most do not. Some believe the earth is very new, and totally deny Darwin. And so on.
They certainly have variety of belief in common - and so much more.
This is quite true, but please tell me, just once more, what type of Christians blow themselves up, stone women, hang gays, promote the killing of people who leave their religion, etc.?



I'm not just talking about Christians in the West either, do you know of any in the Middle East, Africa, Asia? And no I don't care about the Crusades or Inquisition, I mean in modern times (at least the last 150 years) anywhere in the world.
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Old 09.02.2011, 12:55
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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This is quite true, but please tell me, just once more, what type of Christians blow themselves up, stone women, hang gays, promote the killing of people who leave their religion, etc.?

There's a fair amount of that kind of thing going on in the name of Christ in Africa, unfortunately.

Google "nigerian child witches" and you'll see what I mean.
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  #72  
Old 09.02.2011, 13:07
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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I don't see what alternative to multiculturalism a modern state can offer. So long as someone pays taxes and obeys the law, why on earth should he not be allowed to live as he sees fit, speak as he sees fit, think as he sees fit and bring up his children as he sees fit?

The problem with the application of multiculturalism in practice is that too many people think it's about bending over backwards to accommodate everyone and his dog. It isn't. It's about allowing people to live according to their own customs and conscience, enabling them to access services to which they are entitled and for which they have probably paid, and, most importantly, minding your own business.

Multiculturalism isn't about folk dances in community centres, white women wearing saris and bangles or abstaining from lunch because you share your office with a Muslim. Multiculturalism, rather, is about treating Mrs Iqbal with as much (or as little) respect as you would treat Mrs Stanshall down the road, regardless of the fact that she chooses to wear a veil, doesn't speak any English and won't let her children eat your biscuits because she can't be sure they're halal.

In a nutshell, multiculturalism is about live and let live. It isn't always easy to accept that people around you see the world in a profoundly different way to you, to accept that God, family and honour might play a more important role to them than individual liberty, equality or 'fair play', but, if we have any hope of co-existing with people from places as culturally distinct from our towns and suburbs as it is possible to get without leaving the planet, we must accept it.

That is not to say that there is no place for education, for encouraging "integration" (whatever that means), for inviting our neighbours to learn English. But we shouldn't insist on forcing our cultural values upon those who are new to such things. What right do we have to do so, anyway?

Above all, though, multiculturalism must include a requirement to obey the law: the same law, for all. The ethnicity or cultural origin of a murderer or wife beater is irrelevant - a criminal is a criminal in any language, and there are certain standards of behaviour which are expected in our part of the world, just as there are certain standards of behaviour which are expected elsewhere (and which may not always be to our taste).

Short of committing crimes, though, why should we not allow people to live how they want?
In some ways I agree with this, but you have to ask yourself.

If a man believes in female genital mutilation, gays should be hung, adulterers should be stoned...what is he doing in a Liberal Western nation?

Why does he not make his nation rich and teach his kids to work toward that aim so they can be comfortable around the like-minded?

THe issue to me is two fold.

You have intolerance from the majority community (as always has been and always will be), I speak as a visible minority from the nation of my birth, so I know quite a bit about racism and discrimination more so than the white people on this site who talk about "Swiss racism against other Europeans" as if somehow it is the same situation as an Indian, black, or Asian who visibly stands out.

No the problem is also intolerance of minorities as well.

Both parties have responsibilities to uphold.

For example, the majority should not discriminate in hiring (or keep stupid rules and laws that allow such discrimination to go unchecked)

The minority (specifically a new immigrant) should respect the laws, but also the traditions. A newbie should not be protesting the majority saying to 'respect their religion' and not say "Merry Christmas" but instead "Happy Holidays" or asking for "Sharia law" when they can barely even speak the national language. That is lunacy.

Both types of intolerance work in a cyclical fashion doesn't it?

The foreign often doesn't fit in and sometimes does not want to, and worse, can be militant about this. The majority gets offended or put off and starts discriminating against the entire group. The minority gets more entrenched. Sometimes it is the other way round, the minority tries to integrate, but is not give a chance, so they fall back on their culture and become militant.

I have seen it go both ways, but some groups seek to integrate more than others, something else I know well. That's reality, all immigrants are not equal in their ability (due to their cultural background) or desire to integrate into a liberal Western democracy.

Would Europe be having the problems it has today with immigrants if most of the immigrants came from Mainland China and Vietnam, instead of the Middle East and North Africa?

I doubt it.

The only problem will be the second generation son/daughter of an immigrant would be competing with Pierre and Dieter for university seats and high level jobs (which will cause some animosity) other than that, I doubt it.

Europes problem was they had stupid immigration policies that allowed largely incompatible, but they assumed these poor villagers would just go home, they have not. So now Europe does not know what to do. Europeans are also highly nationalistic (even now) in many nations, and many don't want foreigners to integrate because they are racist and xenophobic. In reality that is fine, but they should have been honest about all of this from the beginning and they would not have these issues today, issues that are not going away in the near future.
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  #73  
Old 09.02.2011, 13:08
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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This is quite true, but please tell me, just once more, what type of Christians blow themselves up, stone women, hang gays, promote the killing of people who leave their religion, etc.?
Did you try to visit Northern Ireland in the 80s? Not the same atrocities you describe above, no, but a lot in the name of "our" God (same God, same religion, different flavour). And don't try to tell me it was all about politics..
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  #74  
Old 09.02.2011, 13:20
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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Did you try to visit Northern Ireland in the 80s? Not the same atrocities you describe above, no, but a lot in the name of "our" God (same God, same religion, different flavour). And don't try to tell me it was all about politics..
So you are saying that the two sides killed each other in the name of "The Father, son, and holy spirit"??

I don't think so. That is ethnic, and the British discriminated too long in the favor of the Ultster Scots they brought to Ireland over the Catholic native Irish. Religion was not the main factor, never has been.

There is no Christian biblical justification for "jihad" and the last time Christians were fighting "in the name of God" was the Reformation.

The issue is not what someone did 100's of years ago, it is what is happening today.

Personally I think all Abrahamic religions are barbaric.

I don't recall any Buddhist Holy Wars, but that is because they don't have a monotheist concept.

When you have a religion that is monotheist and universalist that sets up a situation where if someone does not accept your "one true God" he is wrong and flawed, maybe evil. That is a small tep historically from deserving of death.

Jews don't try to convert people anymore (not since biblical times) so you don't have these issues.

Christians just became "less Christian" and decided to ignore large parts of the bible as the West became secular. Also during the reformation, people stopped listen to the Pope and started reading the bible in their own language and realize that previous popes had been lying to them. THat probably did more than anything to calm down Crusade type behavior.

Muslims, and I realize it is a minority, but in reality, you only need about 1% of active nuts, and maybe 5%-10% who are sympathetic to "F-ish up"...these psychopaths, unlike most Christians and Jews in modern times take their religion deadly serious and unlike Jesus, the man they most look up to as "a perfect example", Muhammad killed people. He was not just a religious figure talking about "give to Caesars what is Caesars and don't cast the first stone..." no he was a General, a Judge, and a High Priest all in one. This very much seperates it from Christianity.

My real belief is that "moderate Muslims" don't exist, those people are just like secular "Christians" who support gay marriage and other stuff that is clearly against the Christian bible, they are heretics who justify there lapses.

True believers in Islam are not peaceful. Islam means "Submission" and when you submit to the will of Allah, there can be Peace.

A Muslim friend told me that last year.

So stop provoking religious fanatics to attack you and just "submit" then we can have peace in the world. I will be right behind you.
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  #75  
Old 09.02.2011, 13:26
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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So you are saying that the two sides killed each other in the name of "The Father, son, and holy spirit"??
Not exclusively, but it was certainly the basis for a lot of the murders and bombings that took place.

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Personally I think all Abrahamic religions are barbaric.

So now you're saying Christians ARE barbaric?
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  #76  
Old 09.02.2011, 13:30
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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True believers in Islam are not peaceful. Islam means "Submission" and when you submit to the will of Allah, there can be Peace.
You must be unfamiliar with Wikipedia reference-linkDominionism.
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  #77  
Old 09.02.2011, 13:32
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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Not exclusively, but it was certainly the basis for a lot of the murders and bombings that took place.




So now you're saying Christians ARE barbaric?

I'm saying all Abramamic religions that spawned from the Middle East are inherently tribal and polar, which sets up an odd system that can easily lead to xenophobic and forced assimilation.

Other religions that are pan-theist tend to not have these trends, and these religions also didn't originate in the Middle East.

As far as Northern Ireland, I think you need to learn to seperate "what someone is" and "why they kill".

If I'm white and you are black, and I'm Swiss and you are not, and I beat you to death.

Does that automatically make it a "hate crime".

Obviously not.

Your logic is "it must be".

Priest and Ministers in Northern Ireland were not condoning and promoting killing people of the other faith in the name of God. The IRA was not talking about "Jihad" type scenarios, that they fight for Jesus Christ, that the "heretic" protestants must convert to the "one true God" or face his wrath.

None of that type of nonsense was being spoken.
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Old 09.02.2011, 13:35
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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If a man believes in female genital mutilation, gays should be hung, adulterers should be stoned...what is he doing in a Liberal Western nation?
I dunno. Working? Studying? Hanging out? What are you doing?

Living somewhere doesn't imply - and shouldn't imply - that you necessarily agree with even a single thing the mainstream culture in that country does or says. Of course most people will agree, that's why it's called the mainstream, but to say that there are certain viewpoints people have to adopt or they can't live here... nope, don't like that idea at all.
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Old 09.02.2011, 13:38
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

So a group of UVF members burst into a bar frequented exclusively by Catholics and open fire indiscriminately, why are they doing so?
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Old 09.02.2011, 13:42
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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You must be unfamiliar with Wikipedia reference-linkDominionism.
Are you freaking kidding me?? Seriously?

When a conservative Christian in the U.S. stops going through legal lawful process to influence public policy and starts threatening to kill me, stone me, blow me up, etc. Everyone in a democratic society votes their beliefs. If your belief is Christian or Muslim or whatever, and you are trying to promote that legally through your vote and through lobbying, and the majority support this attitude than so be it.

I will be more concerned when people take to potential terrorist activity, kidnapping children to force conversion on them, using their religion to justify beating and torturing people,etc. You are comparing apples and oranges.

Cognitive Dissonance is a b---h.

The only group in the U.S. who come close to what you describe are fundamentalist Mormons in Utah and Texas that basically for ce marriage on 13 year olds, are still polygamous (although most Mormons reject this in modern times), etc.

These groups are often in the news due to mass arrest of their sick disgusting members, as most Americans, even most Christians do not tolerate such behavior or believe it biblically justified.

Why is it people like you feel the need to make ridiculous comparisons to excuse behaviors in others.

It is the same things as when many Europeans excuse their racism and xenophobia by saying "well other people do it, it is worse in "X" and "Y"' as if that justifies their behavior.

That is a logical fallacy on it's face.
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