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  #81  
Old 09.02.2011, 13:43
porsch1909
 
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

Just to clarify that Islam means submission to God. Quite different from what you are implying.
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  #82  
Old 09.02.2011, 13:44
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No they are not! I appreciate the sentiment behind your post but it is this sort of dumbing down that is so prevalent in our society these days.

What you are suggesting is equivalent of saying-

- The intellectual content of all books in the book store is same because they all use paper

or

- All diet books are essentially same because they deal with food. There are low fat diet books, there are meat driven diet books, there are vegetarian diet books, there are sea food driven diet books

So in short people should read all the books to make up their own mind. I never understood how people can say that they respect all religious books when they have not even studied the content of these books.

Anyway it is a well known fact that Judaism is the best religion as they are God's chosen people
yawn. What on earth have religions got to do with books? That's like saying JK Rowling must adhere to the rules of Harry Potter because she wrote it.
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  #83  
Old 09.02.2011, 13:46
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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So a group of UVF members burst into a bar frequented exclusively by Catholics and open fire indiscriminately, why are they doing so?
Are you freaking kidding me. I'm not going down this road with you. You can be "stuck on stupid" if you want to. You already know the answer and it is not because they wish to kill apostates, heretics , or nonbelievers to their religion. That is not and has never been the issue. The issue just happens to line up with religious beliefs as the parties always had them, which helps to signify identity.

As I said you are trying to equate nonsense. You can do mental gymnastics to justify your beliefs if you wish to. Have fun with that.
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  #84  
Old 09.02.2011, 13:48
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

Oh and another thing about monotheism and barbarism, Google "hindu massacres"; there's plenty of instances of Hindus killing both Christians and Muslims.
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  #85  
Old 09.02.2011, 13:55
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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Are You can be "stuck on stupid" if you want to.
Cool, I join you there then.
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  #86  
Old 09.02.2011, 13:58
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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yawn. What on earth have religions got to do with books?
Religions are a set of ideas and rules. It is far easier to write them down in a simple book in order to spread them rather than to make puppet theater plays/ songs/ board games...

True, most religions interpret their books quite freely, but claiming that religions have nothing to do with books is just as wrong as saying that every Christian follows the bible literally (for example stoning his daughter if she willingly had sex before she married...).
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  #87  
Old 09.02.2011, 14:00
economisto
 
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Religions are a set of ideas and rules. It is far easier to write them down in a simple book in order to spread them rather than to make puppet theater plays/ songs/ board games...

True, most religions interpret their books quite freely, but claiming that religions have nothing to do with books is just as wrong as saying that every Christian follows the bible literally (for example stoning his daughter if she willingly had sex before she married...).
No, none of this is true. Religions or rather followers of religions never interpret rules they just think they do. The rules are the creations of the followers of the religion in their own image, not the other way around. It's the people who make the religion, not the other way around.
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Old 09.02.2011, 14:01
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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Why is it people like you feel the need to make ridiculous comparisons to excuse behaviors in others.
It's not me that's doing the excusing, I was pointing out that Christianinty can behave in exactly the same way as you suggesting that Islam works, that if you just submit to it, then there's no problem.

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I will be more concerned when people take to potential terrorist activity, kidnapping children to force conversion on them, using their religion to justify beating and torturing people,etc. You are comparing apples and oranges.
Nope, don't think so, fundie christians do all those things too, shock horror.
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  #89  
Old 09.02.2011, 14:02
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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(for example stoning his daughter if she willingly had sex before she married...).
IMPOSSIBLE! That's exclusive to Muslims, as are honour killings, genital mutilation and the treatment of women. Heretic!

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  #90  
Old 09.02.2011, 14:05
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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Oh and another thing about monotheism and barbarism, Google "hindu massacres"; there's plenty of instances of Hindus killing both Christians and Muslims.

Was there ever a Hindu Crusade against Christians with the purpose of forcing conversion?

there were wars against Muslims, but were there ever any HIndu religiously inspired wars against Muslims before Muslims invaded the subcontinent.

When the Hindus massacred these people (I know they attack Muslims from time to time in India) what is the reasoning given by the HIndus? Is it for the Muslims to become Hindu? Is it for the Muslims to accept living under some type of Hindu religious law?

As far as Northern Ireland.

If the ULster Scots had been Jews sent to help suppress the Catholic Irish, would the situation be different, but everything else was the same, would it be any different today?

Wat if the Ulster Scots had been Orthodox Christians?

I don't think so.

You seem to have an inability to understand cause and effect.

For example.

If a black Muslim in the U.S. from the (not Nation of Islam) kidnaps a white Baptist and tortures and kills him.

Is that due to Islam?

I would say no. It is due to previous American racial issues. Religion had nothing to do with it, unless the person said the reason for this attack is due to religion or justified by religion.

Your logic is that if a member of one religion kills another it is automatically a religious issue that shows that all members of all religions are equal in the ability to kill people over religion.

That is more than leap of faith it is blind ignorance or intellectual laziness.

For example, I do not believe Palestinians and Israelis fight over religion.

I believe they fight for the same reason Kurds and Turks.

Your thinking is too superficial, but it is likely that way on purpose, because you are more interested in proving your point about Islam than intelligent argument.
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  #91  
Old 09.02.2011, 14:05
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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What on earth have religions got to do with books?
Is this a trick question?

They are integral to religion, because they keep us warm.

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  #92  
Old 09.02.2011, 14:08
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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It's not me that's doing the excusing, I was pointing out that Christianinty can behave in exactly the same way as you suggesting that Islam works, that if you just submit to it, then there's no problem.



Nope, don't think so, fundie christians do all those things too, shock horror.

That is nonsense.

Please shows me how many times in the last 10 years that Christians have killed someone in the name of God, Jesus, or the HOly Spirit because that person was a nonbeliever, an apostate, went against the laws of God, etc.

The only times I can thin of such things are the two times an abortion doctor was killed and in SubSahara Africa sometimes Gays are killed.

Now compare that to how many times a person has died at the hands of a Muslim anywhere in the world for the same thing.

Are you saying they are close to equal?

Also remember their are 2 billion Christians and 1 billion Muslims.

You want to compete with me who can find the most stories of religiously inspired violence? LOL
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  #93  
Old 09.02.2011, 14:10
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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IMPOSSIBLE! That's exclusive to Muslims, as are honour killings, genital mutilation and the treatment of women. Heretic!


Actually I have to say that honor killing is not exclusive to Islam.

It is exclusive to the areas from North Africa through the Middle East on into the Indian Subcontinent, for some reason people in that area (due to tribalism and castism) are heavily into "face and honor" and have a high rate of honor killing.

This is unusual in most of SubSahara Africa that is not Muslim, in most of Southeast Asia, in East Asia, in Europe, in Latin America, etc.

I can't say that is a Muslim or Hindu thing.

It is more an Arab, African Horn, Berber, Persian, and Indian Subcontinent thing.
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  #94  
Old 09.02.2011, 14:15
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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If a black Muslim in the U.S. from the (not Nation of Islam) kidnaps a white Baptist and tortures and kills him.

Is that due to Islam?

I would say no. It is due to previous American racial issues. Religion had nothing to do with it, unless the person said the reason for this attack is due to religion or justified by religion.

Huh? It could be simply because the guy is a psychopath!

I believe they fight for the same reason Kurds and Turks.

Before to get into Kurds and Turks, be careful, I hope you know what you are talking about and have a good back up! Believe me, I have a good BS censor on that matter...

Your thinking is too superficial, but it is likely that way on purpose, because you are more interested in proving your point about Islam than intelligent argument.
Bla bla bla! Honestly is it anything new to tell us? Anything that we don't know about already? I mean, come one! How many topic are made on Islam, muslims, terrorists.... it is so boring!

What do you want to tell us? All religions are bullshits? We have a thread on that already. Why Jews and Muslims fight in Palestine? We have a thread about it. Why christianity is out of date, we also have a thread about it.

Please, something new here? One little thing, just one!
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  #95  
Old 09.02.2011, 14:16
economisto
 
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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I don't see what alternative to multiculturalism a modern state can offer. So long as someone pays taxes and obeys the law, why on earth should he not be allowed to live as he sees fit, speak as he sees fit, think as he sees fit and bring up his children as he sees fit?

The problem with the application of multiculturalism in practice is that too many people think it's about bending over backwards to accommodate everyone and his dog. It isn't. It's about allowing people to live according to their own customs and conscience, enabling them to access services to which they are entitled and for which they have probably paid, and, most importantly, minding your own business.

Multiculturalism isn't about folk dances in community centres, white women wearing saris and bangles or abstaining from lunch because you share your office with a Muslim. Multiculturalism, rather, is about treating Mrs Iqbal with as much (or as little) respect as you would treat Mrs Stanshall down the road, regardless of the fact that she chooses to wear a veil, doesn't speak any English and won't let her children eat your biscuits because she can't be sure they're halal.

In a nutshell, multiculturalism is about live and let live. It isn't always easy to accept that people around you see the world in a profoundly different way to you, to accept that God, family and honour might play a more important role to them than individual liberty, equality or 'fair play', but, if we have any hope of co-existing with people from places as culturally distinct from our towns and suburbs as it is possible to get without leaving the planet, we must accept it.

That is not to say that there is no place for education, for encouraging "integration" (whatever that means), for inviting our neighbours to learn English. But we shouldn't insist on forcing our cultural values upon those who are new to such things. What right do we have to do so, anyway?

Above all, though, multiculturalism must include a requirement to obey the law: the same law, for all. The ethnicity or cultural origin of a murderer or wife beater is irrelevant - a criminal is a criminal in any language, and there are certain standards of behaviour which are expected in our part of the world, just as there are certain standards of behaviour which are expected elsewhere (and which may not always be to our taste).

Short of committing crimes, though, why should we not allow people to live how they want?
I agree. However when you have a society, a system of taxes and benefits, then to some extent how others live their lives becomes everyone's business where it affects others. Because we all share the same borders we all essentially live together and if there's a cultural dynamic which is shown to encourage criminality then it's very much the business of the whole to try to fix that, rather than waiting for crimes to be committed. In a similar way, if we've decided as a society that children should be educated to certain standards, and if we have also discovered that certain faith schools, state funded or not are failing to meet those standards either academically or towards the collective values of the community/country, then it's the business of the whole to step in there as well.

How minorities live their lives does affect everyone else. To take this to the macro stage, it's the business of the USA what minorities are doing in suburban Karachi because unfortunately we live in an age where individuals on the other side of the world can build a bomb and walk it into our towns and cities. State actors have reduced in importance in security matters since the Cold War in favour of religions and groups and individuals and so we need to have a greater degree of control in areas that were really none of our business before. It isn't particularly something that sits comfortably with me, and I prefer a light touch with these things, but I can see the reasons for community intervention.
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  #96  
Old 09.02.2011, 14:17
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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bladibla
/snip
I'll try not to stoop to your level of patronisation, it'll be tough, but I'll try.

If a person murders someone from another religious community, only BECAUSE of the victim's beliefs, then what else is it? It may be simplsitic, but I find hate killings rarely anything else but.
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  #97  
Old 09.02.2011, 14:18
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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Actually I have to say that honor killing is not exclusive to Islam.

It is exclusive to the areas from North Africa through the Middle East on into the Indian Subcontinent, for some reason people in that area (due to tribalism and castism) are heavily into "face and honor" and have a high rate of honor killing.

This is unusual in most of SubSahara Africa that is not Muslim, in most of Southeast Asia, in East Asia, in Europe, in Latin America, etc.

I can't say that is a Muslim or Hindu thing.

It is more an Arab, African Horn, Berber, Persian, and Indian Subcontinent thing.
Hence the sarcasm smiley
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  #98  
Old 09.02.2011, 14:24
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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That is nonsense.

Please shows me how many times in the last 10 years that Christians have killed someone in the name of God, Jesus, or the HOly Spirit because that person was a nonbeliever, an apostate, went against the laws of God, etc.

The only times I can thin of such things are the two times an abortion doctor was killed and in SubSahara Africa sometimes Gays are killed.

Now compare that to how many times a person has died at the hands of a Muslim anywhere in the world for the same thing.

Are you saying they are close to equal?

Also remember their are 2 billion Christians and 1 billion Muslims.

You want to compete with me who can find the most stories of religiously inspired violence? LOL
Well, do you count the wars? They were partly encouraged by a sect of christians hoping to bring about the return of jesus, maybe a small influence true.

How many of those 1 billion Muslims are the hardcore ones? How many of the Christians are the hardcore ones? You seem to ascribe the worse characteristics of fundie Muslims to the whole religion, why not do the same for christianity?

Every time we read of something horrific in the papers, it will be splashed all over if any connection to islam could be found, but would they make such tennous links for a christian? If a christian guy kills someone over his sister, is it called an honour killing? Bit if gaybashing goes on, is it tied to christianity? Wife beating, christianity's fault? Oh no, but as soon as it's muslim, that's the only reason.

So no, I can't dredge up all these crimes, because they are simply not attributed to the religion in the same way that some poor muslim would be.
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  #99  
Old 09.02.2011, 14:52
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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Old 09.02.2011, 15:44
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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In some ways I agree with this, but you have to ask yourself.

If a man believes in female genital mutilation, gays should be hung, adulterers should be stoned...what is he doing in a Liberal Western nation?
One of the rules of democracy as far as I can see is that you can believe whatever you like. You can believe in a Spaghetti Monster, you can believe that Obama was behind 9/11, you can believe that the Holocaust was a gigantic hoax engineered to justify the oppression of Palestinians and you can believe that Capitalism is next to Godliness and that Dubya is its profit. But as long as the majority doesn't agree with you those beliefs must remain beliefs and you cannot demand that any laws be based on them or seek to derive any rights from them.

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You have intolerance from the majority community (as always has been and always will be), I speak as a visible minority from the nation of my birth, so I know quite a bit about racism and discrimination more so than the white people on this site who talk about "Swiss racism against other Europeans" as if somehow it is the same situation as an Indian, black, or Asian who visibly stands out.
I think there is always a danger of confusing intolerance with non-integration (I was going to write disintegration ). Tolerance has a lot to do with live and let live and the result of this tolearnce is that you find third generation immigrant families who still haven't learnt the language. Tolerance alone is not enough.
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