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  #141  
Old 09.02.2011, 19:58
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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Nil, you are not a Catholic are you? This is not so prevalent nowadays in say the UK and Switzerland- but in Africa Christianism is still of the traditional type. Hence the Bishops comments on homosexuality being an abomination, and the total refusal to even consider the ordination of women. They say the European Catholic Church has lost her way and is betraying the Bible and its teaching. When my father was young, and even for Catholics of my generation - they were told that if they didn't obey word for word, they would burn in hell- and they believed it. Same in Africa now - so it is not 'just' talk or fatherly advice!
I know that. I am not arguing on this, but on the fact that the guy spoke, not forced.

Your argument about their strong believe is what I also was trying to show earlier. They have the strong believe that if they do something against the church words or book, they will burn in hell. Having sex before mariage was also a ticket for hell according to the church, no?

Believe me, I am not defending the guy or anybody else in the church. But I can't see how this guy should get the whole responsability of something that was clear:

No sex
No condoms

If no sex, no need of condoms.

If sex: burn to hell
If sex with condom: burn to hell
If sex without condom: burn to hell

Am I wrong to believe that those ''instructions'' from him were clear?

The guy said something and people follow him (on a part of it, which they prefer to) He is not better than the Mullah who tells to people to go and blow themselve and kill as many infidels as possible. Not everybody will follow this and some will walk their way and refused to let someone takes decision for them.

Ask those pro freedom of speech of this forum. How to say what ever you want to everybody (without facing consequences) should be different then him preaching what ever he believes in.

Now why they had sex but didn't used condoms? Is it because campaigns were made that even if they used condoms it wouldn't change anything? Is the Pope actually said No condom period or don't use it because it won't protect you anyway.

2 differents and very importants informations. Which one was it? If the Pope said: no sex but if you do it anyway, don't use condoms. He is guilty of tricking people into it. If he said No sex and no condom anyway, is he guilty?

I am not sure if I am clear, please Odile, tell me if you understand where I am going with this....
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  #142  
Old 09.02.2011, 20:05
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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He talked.
Nil, let me propose the following scenario to you to try and demonstrate my point and please keep in mind that it is just a scenario and not something that I would do but perhaps it will show you what I am trying to point out.

Do you have kids? If so, or even if not, imagine this...
I get to talking to your kids.
You are not around to help inject some amount of reason into the conversation.
I am respected by your kids as a cool person to follow.
I tell them that smoking is cool and good for them and so easy to start.
I don't actually give them a cigarette or through any physical action help them to start.
I keep on telling them that it is a good thing to smoke.
I tell them that my way is the best way and look at how much fun I have smoking.

Who do you blame when you kids start smoking?

"Just talking" as you put it is one of the most dangerous weapons on the planet. And yes, I fully support the freedom of speech, just as I fully support the right to bear arms, but I also fully support the punishment of those who cause damage to others through the words they use or the guns they carry. An intellectual with rhetoric is quite often much more destructive than an idiot with a gun. We learned that during the second world war and the Africans are having to learn it through the current situation. As somebody that grew up in Africa, they quite enough problems out there without having people give them bad health advice.
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  #143  
Old 09.02.2011, 20:09
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

Yes, I can see what you are saying - but imho his 'advice' was totally unrealistic, misplaced and yes, criminal in my eyes. If he truly believed 'just say no to sex' would work, perhaps he was stupid too. Sorry if this offends anybody.
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  #144  
Old 09.02.2011, 20:13
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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No sex
No condoms

If no sex, no need of condoms.

If sex: burn to hell
If sex with condom: burn to hell
If sex without condom: burn to hell

Am I wrong to believe that those ''instructions'' from him were clear?
Unfortunatley, yes, you are wrong on this. The instructions from the Catholic church are as clear as mud...that is why they activley banned the clergy for teaching the massess to read for hundreds of years so that they would not understand the scriptures but rather have to have blind faith in the clergy (this was by the way a stated written principle). It is also the reason that they have so many debates and schisms in the church constantly and have spent pretty much the last 2000 years arguing about what Christianity acutally is.
The poor African people have to try and figure out between Catholicism and American happy clappy approaches what is right. Sex is okay but only after marraige, Sex is evil all the time, condoms are okay but only in these circumstances, being gay is okay, being gay is going to send you to hell, abortion is wrong but....
It is a minefield....even the Pope went back and gave some caveat extensions to when it was okay to use condoms that I don't understand, let alone some poor individual who has no primary education, can read or write and is more interested in where some clean water is to drink tomorrow so that they can survive the day. For the price of a condom a life could be saved. To support some silly idea that sex is only for procreation millions will die.

He is guilty because he knew that the truth is that wearing a condom will help save you from AIDS and saving a life is of prime Christian importance as I understand.
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  #145  
Old 09.02.2011, 20:14
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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from Colin,...
I agree with you 100%.

And this is what I was kind of trying to say.

BUT

According to those who do advocate freedom of speech no matter what. They say that we should be allowed to say what ever we want and not being held responsible for it.

In this case, if this should apply to someone's right to burn Bibles or Quran and being able to walk away of consequences, it should be the same for what ever someone says about faith and the way to live it...

The Freedom of speech can't be depending of the situation. It is there or not. And this what I am trying to find out. Was it him talking and preaching or him taking actual actions on it.
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  #146  
Old 09.02.2011, 20:19
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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Yes, I can see what you are saying - but imho his 'advice' was totally unrealistic, misplaced and yes, criminal in my eyes. If he truly felt 'just say no to sex' would work, perhaps he was stupid too. Sorry if this offends anybody.
Thanks Odile,

I believe in freedom of speech but I don't believe that everything is good to say. In his case, he shouldn,t have said those things because it was indeed putting people on the line in their faith and choices.

Education was missing and the decisions weren't made in knowledge of the danger.
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  #147  
Old 09.02.2011, 20:22
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

Freedom of speech does have to have limits. It stops where it incites hatred, as per British Law. And it stops when it kills mio's.
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Old 09.02.2011, 20:23
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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And why Cameron wants to encourage more segregation through schools, is just an aberration. Sadly, as long as 'we' insist on keeping segregated schools for different Christian and non-Christian groups- things will not improve.
Why on Eart are you bringing David Cameron into this thread? What's he got to do wi......oh hold on a minute I thought it was yet another religion bashing thread!
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Old 09.02.2011, 20:29
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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Freedom of speech does have to have limits. It stops where it incites hatred, as per British Law. And it stops when it kills mio's.
With the possible exception of certain spells described by J.K. Rowling, there is nothing you can say that can actually kill millions.

If people who do hate crimes try to pass the buck to the guy who incited them that's just ducking responsibility.

Free speech is okay. Let's protect it, not blame it.
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  #150  
Old 09.02.2011, 20:29
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

Can anyone say lost the plot?
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  #151  
Old 09.02.2011, 20:31
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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With the possible exception of certain spells described by J.K. Rowling, there is nothing you can say that can actually kill millions.

If people who do hate crimes try to pass the buck to the guy who incited them that's just ducking responsibility.

Free speech is okay. Let's protect it, not blame it.
So in this case, the Pope can't be responsible of what happened and still happening...

Is this right?
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  #152  
Old 09.02.2011, 20:33
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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Can anyone say lost the plot?
Come on! The Plot was from a troll bashing on Muslims, not what we can call a big lost!
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  #153  
Old 09.02.2011, 20:38
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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So in this case, the Pope can't be responsible of what happened and still happening...

Is this right?
The pope said "don't have sex".

People disregarded his advice and caught AIDS.

Other people have said even stranger things.

It's always useful if there's somebody else you can blame.

So in your opinion, are people responsible for their own actions or are they not?
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  #154  
Old 09.02.2011, 20:42
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

Limits to free speech? Peter Tatchell may not be popular with all, but I understand what he is saying here, in the context of the Dutch neo-nazi from Netherlands being refused entry to UK:

In a piece entitled: "Do fascists have a right to free speech?" he writes: "It is possible that if there had been no free speech for Hitler and the Nazi Party in Germany during the early 1920s... they may not have grown in strength and influence.
"Denying them an opportunity to propagandise, gain respectability and enter the political mainstream might have thwarted their rise to power. Tens of millions of lives may have been saved if the free speech of Nazis had been suppressed early on."
He added: "In extreme circumstances, there should be intolerance of intolerance. Otherwise some people can use free speech and their human rights to undermine the human rights of others."




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  #155  
Old 09.02.2011, 20:56
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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So in your opinion, are people responsible for their own actions or are they not?
I like this question.

Yes I believe people are reponsible of their own actions. If I tell you to jump down the bridge and you do so, you are the one who jumped.

But I also believe that sometimes history showed us that some actions have been made by a whole population under someone's order which shouldn't have happened in an normal situation

For exemple the genocide in Cambogia, the Holocaust and plenty of exemple of collective suicides. People's brain are malleable. Human nature tend to follow rules without thinking, analysing and criticising them.

Why and how some will follow and why, how and who won't...
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Old 09.02.2011, 21:22
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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In this case, if this should apply to someone's right to burn Bibles or Quran and being able to walk away of consequences, it should be the same for what ever someone says about faith and the way to live it...
Yes, as per my example with the smoking.

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The Freedom of speech can't be depending of the situation. It is there or not. And this what I am trying to find out. Was it him talking and preaching or him taking actual actions on it.
Yes, you are quite right.
However we are talking about actions and consequences here. It is not the action that is judged, it is the consenquences.

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So in this case, the Pope can't be responsible of what happened and still happening...
He is culpable because something that he said was bad advice to people who may not have known any better.

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The pope said "don't have sex".
People disregarded his advice and caught AIDS.
Other people have said even stranger things.
(snip)
So in your opinion, are people responsible for their own actions or are they not?
And
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I like this question.

Yes I believe people are reponsible of their own actions. If I tell you to jump down the bridge and you do so, you are the one who jumped.
Another example. Somebody is high on acid or perhaps just not fully mentally capable of understanding. They are standing on a bridge, I am standing next to them and telling them to jump and that they really can fly.
Are they completely responsible for their actions.
Were your 8 year old children responsible for their smoking habit that I encouraged them into?
Were people that don't know what a virus or even a desease is and can't read or write responsible for getting AIDS because somebody told them condoms would not save them from it.
I hope you see where I am going with this. Not everybody is fit to make their own mind up about things unless they have the education and open access to information.
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Old 09.02.2011, 21:35
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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Oh yes! I get my slap every morning and sometimes twice in case I forgot!
Oh, is that what you call it?
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  #158  
Old 09.02.2011, 21:46
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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Oh, is that what you call it?

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Old 09.02.2011, 21:49
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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I believe that wraps that thread up!!!
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Old 10.02.2011, 02:48
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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This is quite true, but please tell me, just once more, what type of Christians blow themselves up, stone women, hang gays, promote the killing of people who leave their religion, etc.?



I'm not just talking about Christians in the West either, do you know of any in the Middle East, Africa, Asia? And no I don't care about the Crusades or Inquisition, I mean in modern times (at least the last 150 years) anywhere in the world.
Erm, did you ever hear of the Spanish Inquisition?

The word apostasy ring any bells? Not Islamic terms, I'm afraid.

The Salem witch trials were about the same thing. The same happened all over Europe and in all of the colonies on all continents. Just because most current governments were founded by Christians and they have written history to suit their dogmatic and political needs doesn't mean that these things didn't happen.

Don't forget that the Troubles in Ireland are at least partly due to sectarian Christian animosity. I seem to recall bombings both in the UK, with which I have indirect experience, and in Ireland, most of which weren't directed at the "British Imperialist Interlopers."

BTW, I've only had family members that came close to being killed due to these events. Nothing truly horrible ever happened to me or mine so I hold no great animosity towards most of the people involved, excepting the blatant murderers on all sides. OTOH, I have had a friend of the family killed by so called fundamentalist Islamic terrorists, and I have no hatred for the rank and file muslims for the same reasons.

The people that murder aren't necessarily the average person of that particular faith. The real problem is how to separate the fanaticism from the majority of reasonable human beings.

I guess that we should be grateful that explosives didn't exist when the Christians were really in their stride, which by the way was from the Crusades pretty much up until the end of the Inquisition.

These accusations and insinuations that only one religion constitutes all of the problems is in and of itself a part of the problem. Finger point and demonise all you want, it won't bring you one step closer to a solution. On the contrary, it will tend to cause to drift aimlessly away from most of the potentially good solutions. We need to stop blaming other peoples differences as if they are so much worse than us and start looking for actual solutions for the true root causes of the symptoms that our world experiences every day.

Eh, yes, well think that about wraps up this chapter.

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