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  #161  
Old 10.02.2011, 08:41
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

Last night I was listening to Radio 4 while making dinner and came across an interesting debate on Cameron's speech and multiculturalism (so I missed the spanking end to this thread). However, at least all of you can listen to the debate again on iplayer.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00y8yjv#synopsis
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  #162  
Old 10.02.2011, 10:57
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

Thanks - will watch Question time tonight too, as it is likely to come up.
No time to listen to all now, but sounds interesting.
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  #163  
Old 10.02.2011, 13:50
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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Spanish Inquisition, apostasy, Salem, etc.
Are we talking about now or in the past (as per the original question from ANWV). Because if we are talking about the past, no one can really cover themselves in glory.

BTW, you might want check again to see if the Spanish Inquisition - which was really less active by the 15th C - was really about religion vs. politics. Just sayin'...

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Don't forget that the Troubles in Ireland are at least partly due to sectarian Christian animosity.
You sure about this one too - do you have any evidence of priests/the RC Church encouraging the violence?

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I seem to recall bombings both in the UK, with which I have indirect experience, and in Ireland, most of which weren't directed at the "British Imperialist Interlopers."
Erm. Really. You sure about that? I'd like to know which ones you are thinking of.

The line from the IRA and/or real IRA has always been: bomb them to put popular pressure on the politicians to get the UK out of N. Ireland.

But clearly, I'm just misguided on this one.
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  #164  
Old 10.02.2011, 16:04
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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Limits to free speech? Peter Tatchell may not be popular with all, but I understand what he is saying here, in the context of the Dutch neo-nazi from Netherlands being refused entry to UK:

In a piece entitled: "Do fascists have a right to free speech?" he writes: "It is possible that if there had been no free speech for Hitler and the Nazi Party in Germany during the early 1920s... they may not have grown in strength and influence.
"Denying them an opportunity to propagandise, gain respectability and enter the political mainstream might have thwarted their rise to power. Tens of millions of lives may have been saved if the free speech of Nazis had been suppressed early on."
He added: "In extreme circumstances, there should be intolerance of intolerance. Otherwise some people can use free speech and their human rights to undermine the human rights of others."



This quote has one small error. The Nazi party was banned at one point and Hitler spent time in prison. It gave him the martyr's bonus he was previously working so hard (but unsuccesfully) to earn. It also gave him some time to work on his ideology and write his book. He came out a strengthened figure, not a weakened one.

Maybe the question should be turned around. Had they given Hitler full free speech, would he maybe have ended up as a footnote in the chapter on failed political buffoons rather than as a mass murderer? As with all "what if" questions, we don't know.
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  #165  
Old 10.02.2011, 17:13
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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Are we talking about now or in the past (as per the original question from ANWV). Because if we are talking about the past, no one can really cover themselves in glory.

BTW, you might want check again to see if the Spanish Inquisition - which was really less active by the 15th C - was really about religion vs. politics. Just sayin'...

You sure about this one too - do you have any evidence of priests/the RC Church encouraging the violence?

Erm. Really. You sure about that? I'd like to know which ones you are thinking of.

The line from the IRA and/or real IRA has always been: bomb them to put popular pressure on the politicians to get the UK out of N. Ireland.

But clearly, I'm just misguided on this one.
Of course most of my examples were the past. You are exactly correct, there is no glory in murdering the innocent. It was done in the past and still being done now. Just the groups may be different. The point is that the "my religion is better than your religion" argument in specious at best and IMHO irrelevant.

Re the S.I. All religion and religious atrocities, such as the Inquisition, are about politics. I would even go so far as to venture the equivalence. Religion = Politics

BTW, the comment that start this thread about multiculturalism was made by a politician about a religious group... Any need for further questions about this particular issue? I thought not...

As far as the RC church and the Troubles...
I was raised RC and remember hearing many times about how we should donate money to the "Irish Cause." Not from the pulpit, but from side conversations during coffee and donuts, etc. That is close enough for me.

So the difference between "bomb them to put pressure on the British Govt", I.E. murder innocent civilians in Ireland and the UK and what some islamic fanatics are doing is what precisely? The only one I see is that the ones doing the bombing are of either a religion that is cut from the cloth of the establishment or it isn't. Murder is still murder.

I don't think that you are misguided per se, more that we are being misimformed. I think that the politicians and many of the religious zealots like to have things very simplified to get maximum reaction from the public.
In other words, Group A did X and they are evil.
No no no, don't remember that group B did X so many years ago because they are not evil anymore.
And whatever you do, don't remember that we, Group C, did thing Y and Z to the other groups before that which may well be the reason that all of the rest of this shite is happening...

My point is simple. We don't get to blame just one group for what is happening when the root causes may go back for centuries. Not to mention that the precursor religions of Islam and many others all seem to have gone through these phases. If we want to deal with the problems then by all means blame the individuals (murderers and rabble rousers) and hold them accountable for their actions. But the solution to the larger problem is not to point fingers and say "It's all your fault, (Insert demonised race/religion/ethnic group of choice), once we deal with you everything will be just "hunky dory."

Just to try and focus back on topic, I think that multiculturalism is great, right up until the outsiders start inflicting their beliefs on the public at large. I say this having been an outsider a few times. When I am in other countries, I do not relinquish my "American-ness" but I do try and respect the customs and ethos of the place where I currently am. I had two years of it in Switzerland, and when I went to India, Turkey, and various places in Africa I behaved in the same manner. If people want to do their own thing, that is fine. But, when you go somewhere else, you can and should expect some give and take. Or is that too reasonable?
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  #166  
Old 11.02.2011, 00:37
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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Thanks - will watch Question time tonight too, as it is likely to come up.
No time to listen to all now, but sounds interesting.
Wow not a single panelist or member of the audience mentioned the Pope, the Catholic church or condoms in Africa or AIDS in the debate on David Cameron's speech or British multiculturism. How incredible!
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  #167  
Old 11.02.2011, 05:29
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Re: David Cameron has finally awakened - attacks multiculturalism

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Wow not a single panelist or member of the audience mentioned the Pope, the Catholic church or condoms in Africa or AIDS in the debate on David Cameron's speech or British multiculturism. How incredible!
Maybe they should let us do the debate.

Sounds like there might be more intellectual content.
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  #168  
Old 12.02.2011, 23:12
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Sarkozy denounces multiculturalism as 'a failure'

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FRENCH PRESIDENT Nicolas Sarkozy has declared multiculturalism a failure and has taken issue with Muslims praying on the streets of French cities.

In a televised exchange with selected voters, aimed at setting out his plans for the year ahead, Mr Sarkozy echoed the recent critiques of multiculturalism by British prime minister David Cameron and German chancellor Angela Merkel.


“It’s a failure,” he said. “The truth is that in all our democracies, we’ve been too concerned about the identity of the new arrivals and not enough about the identity of the country receiving them. This raises the issue of Islam and our Muslim compatriots.

“Our Muslim compatriots should be able to live and practise their religion like anyone else . . . but it can only be a French Islam and not just an Islam in France.”
Sarkozy denounces multiculturalism as 'a failure'
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  #169  
Old 12.02.2011, 23:30
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Re: Sarkozy denounces multiculturalism as 'a failure'


Please forgive my stupidity, but why does Mr Sarkozy consider Muslims praying in the street to be a problem?
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  #170  
Old 13.02.2011, 00:39
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Re: Sarkozy denounces multiculturalism as 'a failure'

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Please forgive my stupidity, but why does Mr Sarkozy consider Muslims praying in the street to be a problem?
It's interfering with the mimes.
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  #171  
Old 13.02.2011, 03:51
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Re: Sarkozy denounces multiculturalism as 'a failure'

Labour MPs have also said that multicuturism has failed in the UK. Don't ask me for sources but over five years or so ago I heard it being said on political TV programmes.
But I don't think it will really rise to the top of the political agenda. During Question Time on Thursday a member of the audience said he'd travelled all over the world and said that he thought that Britain was the most tollerent country he'd been to. But he was white. However two audience members later an English Indian guy said he agreed.
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