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  #21  
Old 09.02.2011, 22:19
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Re: Russian Skinheads

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And remember young people like that love attention. Give them a beer or two, encourage them by saying how much you agree with their views and then turn the camera on and see what they do, of course editing out vast amounts of boring or reasonable stuff and keeping the extremes. That's modern journalsim for you.
In the pub i spend most of my time in, there are some neo nazis and skinheads. They go almost every night and they are some of the most quiet people there. Students cause more trouble than them
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  #22  
Old 09.02.2011, 22:21
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Re: Russian Skinheads

I spent a few days in a small industrial town in the Ural mountains 3 years ago on business and although found the local people friendly enough in general, and many extremely so, I did notice a certain attitutude to outsiders by some individuals, interestingly, this was also displayed to some Russians who were from out of town. It was quite a shock that I had to be accompanied by guards everywhere, and their reaction when I wanted to go for a midnight ramble in the forest to enjoy the white night was something!

From what I could see, this was not a colour issue, or even a nationality issue, but having heard the history of the town can understand (though do not condone any violence, physical or verbal) they were fearful of anything that might upset the applecart but this is something seen in many places all over the world.
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  #23  
Old 09.02.2011, 22:28
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Re: Russian Skinheads

Russian is such a ginormous and varied country - and as anywhere, there must be some areas (towns) which are much more prone to xenophobia than others (rural).
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  #24  
Old 09.02.2011, 22:44
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Re: Russian Skinheads

FWIW I travel to Russia regularly for almost 12 years now, and do hang out in clubs etc. To this date I did not encounter any act of violence (yes, I am of the darker-skin type).
Acts of violence are everywhere (even here re last week's story about the British couple in Zug), and are probably much more frequent in huge metropolitan like Moscow with 11M inhabitants, but still not so out of proportion to be alarming.
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  #25  
Old 09.02.2011, 22:45
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Re: Russian Skinheads

I think we can all agree that xenophobia and bigotry is generally caused by insecurity.
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  #26  
Old 09.02.2011, 22:56
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Re: Russian Skinheads

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Russia in a terrible state at the moment, with a tiny minority of hugely rich, and the rest in desperate poverty.
I disagree. While my first-hand experience is limited to Moscow, I can still say that this is not entirely true - it is more the picture the Western European media likes to show.

I travelled there on business and worked with Russian colleagues on several projects. They were my age, highly educated and in short far more cosmopolitan than any other Nationality I worked with. They all made experiences abroad (like studying a year in the US), had an excellent command of English (far better than for example my Italian or French colleagues) and were generally very interesting to talk to: They were what I would call "middle class" and surprised me with some views I did not expect.

1. All of them loved Putin. The same ex-KGB guy the west loves to put into the evil dictator corner was for them a true hero - he was strong handed but brought Russia a big step forward after the 90s where corruption and Oligarch power peaked. He lowered crime, got the oligarchs and the mafia "under control" and the middle class grew and has a better life since he took over from Jelzin.

2. I honestly think that large parts of the world are considerably poorer than anything I have seen in Russia. I would not exactly love to live in the massive blocks, but hey - looks like everyone had enough to eat, housing, heating, electricity, water... not as rich as Switzerland, but according to the gdp per capita far closer to Poland than any third world country.

3. I am sure this violence exists. It does pretty much everywhere. It looks shocking to us because of the Nazi-Factor. But you mentioned Ross Kemp, have a look at his documentaries on Hooligans, pirates or gangs - you have the same aggressive losers all over the world in one form or another.
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Old 09.02.2011, 23:45
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Re: Russian Skinheads

Been to Moscow and around Russia many times I find russians really friendly and funny. Been arrested twice tho by the police trying to get baksheesh out of me. I am a healthy brown skinned individual.

Went to the worst places in Russia no probs there either thats my experience.
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  #28  
Old 09.02.2011, 23:52
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Re: Russian Skinheads

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I've encountered the first Russian skinhead documentary roughly 5 years ago and it quite shocked me. I've now and then seen some fresh documentaries emerge with an even hightened level of violence and basic disregard of human nature. This seems to be a real growing issue and I was wondering (since I've never been to Russia) how things really are. Is this just a youtube propaganda to scare people? Are things really that bad as depicted? Please share your opinions and experiences.

I've included a documentary that I've recently watched. (Warning: it contains violent graphic images)
"Been to Russia" ? I only was in Moscow for 5 days back in 2001 (Moscow Airshow) and so cannot seriously help you. But what I saw allows me to say that rather many Russians are seriously serious drinkers So that I attribute some "violence" simply to some "intoxication". Overall however the Russians are the most hospitable folks on earth. I at the airshow at around 11.50 captured a nice table and chair on the lawn outside the Ilyushin "chalet", got some eating and a nice bottle of most excellent Crimea Champagne (CHF 3.-- = one litre) and settled down. Then the Russians came in and took their seats and tables around me but mostly with Vodka. I got integrated within moments and was continually invited to cheers "Nastrovye" from all sides.

Russia having some most serious problems ? No surprise to me, I only object to generalisations. It basically is a fine nation.
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  #29  
Old 09.02.2011, 23:54
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Re: Russian Skinheads

his especially focuses on blacks.

Part I



Part II



Please comment on the video...no wild speculation from those who have never lived in Russia. Thanks.


Most is most interesting was the attitude under Communism as promoted by the state.

I read a book about a black American who moved to Russia as a student before WWII and spent the next 30+ years trying to escape back to America. He studied mechanical engineering in Moscow.
When he left he said the racism he experienced in Russia was less than he experienced in the South of America, but he said it changed, it got worse as time went on (I guess after Stalin's propaganda and his usefulness to it ended). He then said that when he came back to America in the 1970's America had changed so much he did not recognize it.

His autobiography is called:

Black on Red: My 44 Years Inside the Soviet Union, by Robert Robinson

He described Russian racial attitudes at the time in great detail over a long period, quite an interesting book.

After watching this, I ask myself "Why"?

Blacks in Russia are not known for causing a lot of problems, most crime by foreigners is committed by Asians and Caucasus people. To me it seems quite barbaric that people can't walk the streets or take the train, even in the daytime...that's insane. That is worse than America was during Jim Crow in 1920 or 1940...the average black man could definitely walk down the street in the South and likely not be attacked UNLESS he broke a "rule" like stared at a white woman, refused to step off the side walk for a white woman, entered a establishment for "whites" through the front door, used the "white water fountains" as backward and ignorant as that may sound. In 2010, you have blacks in Russia who can't even go off a college campus. :-O

I went to Russia the first (and only) time in 1996. I went with my ex-girlfriend to Moscow. People stared (sometimes hard and nasty) but no one ever was threatening. I never felt in danger, that I can remember. Now I've been warned by Russian friends not to try that again, as the situation has deteriorated and Putin caters to the right-wing as he is some sort of "nationalist".

So this situation,from reading the book above, to watching the videos, seems to have studly gotten worse.
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  #30  
Old 09.02.2011, 23:59
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Re: Russian Skinheads

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People stared (sometimes hard and nasty) but no one ever was threatening. I never felt in danger, that I can remember.
...are you black or any other visible deviation from the average Russian looking person?
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  #31  
Old 10.02.2011, 00:01
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Re: Russian Skinheads

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...are you black or any other visible deviation from the average Russian looking person?
I'm African American, so I pretty familiar with racists and how they tend to act. I know the difference between a curious look and a hostile or disgusted look. I got curious looks all the time when I lived in Japan, no harm/no foul, I never felt in danger. In Russia I did watch my back though. Swiss people stare at times too, especially where I live, but usually not in a hostile way that would make me think they are racist or hateful. I think since I've been here (2 months) I've only encountered that once here. In Russia it was every hour or so, from what I remember, almost always men, usually middle aged, some young.
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Old 10.02.2011, 00:05
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Re: Russian Skinheads

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To be honest, I watched the whole thing and it didnt shock me. Well, the groups of neo-Nazis and skinheads existed since 60's and 70's or even ealier and almost every white Caucasian country had fair share of these anarchist scumbags and lowlives who stir more hatred and shit than actually do anything good as they claim in the video. I would still suspect that Russian front is not so large compare to the other countries like the States. Brings memory of the movie called "American History X". I have seen those groups in many countries although never experienced any clash with them. I believe some of them are just bunch of kids and pretenders who follow fashion like punks and heavy metal mania but some could be hardcore fanatics who believe that thru propaganda and brainwashing will gain some political influence.

Personally as amolges pointed it out I wouldn't worry much as these groups are minority and will never gain any serious support in country with million of citizens. They would get their asses kicked by emigrants first!
Please abstain from using US terms in this. "Caucasians" in Russia are people from the Caucasus, which means Azerbaijanis, Armenians and Georgians, but of course also Caucasians from the Northern Caucausus like Chechnya etc. Neo-Nazis in Russia of course are Anti-Caucasian absolutely. The Caucasians are lumped together in Moscow as being the "Blacks"
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  #33  
Old 10.02.2011, 00:08
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Re: Russian Skinheads

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I'm African American, so I pretty familiar with racists and how they tend to act. I know the difference between a curious look and a hostile or disgusted look. I got curious looks all the time when I lived in Japan, no harm/no foul, I never felt in danger. In Russia I did watch my back though. Swiss people stare at times too, especially where I live, but usually not in a hostile way that would make me think they are racist or hateful. I think since I've been here (2 months) I've only encountered that once here. In Russia it was every hour or so, from what I remember, almost always men, usually middle aged, some young.
Slightly OT but just recently, I've read "black like me" by John Howard Griffin...it clearly depicts aspects of racism and the experience of living in both the black and white world...a book that I can definitely recommend.
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  #34  
Old 10.02.2011, 00:08
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Re: Russian Skinheads

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Please abstain from using US terms in this. "Caucasians" in Russia are people from the Caucasus, which means Azerbaijanis, Armenians and Georgians, but of course also Caucasians from the Northern Caucausus like Chechnya etc. Neo-Nazis in Russia of course are Anti-Caucasian absolutely. The Caucasians are lumped together in Moscow as being the "Blacks"
Funny thing is that Georgians are also called "Cherny" (black) like everyone else from "the south", so Stalin was "black". lol

In Russia it is very simple. You are "white", meaning specifically Orthadox Slav or some European (Russians usually refer to Europe as some places else, like Brits often refer to the 'continent", Russians often say "I'm going to Europe", as if they don't live there).

Muslims (any Muslim) and anyone Asian, African, Middle Eastern, from the Caucasus, etc are all called "black" (cherny).
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  #35  
Old 10.02.2011, 00:19
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Re: Russian Skinheads

Don't know about Russia but I have some documentaries by Daniel Schweizer,
Skin or Die/Skinhead Attitude/White Terror. I guess it is about the same percentage in Russia as everywhere.

In Switzerland it changed a bit since the eighties. Not the numbers but the appearance.

Let's not forget that there are other Skinheads around:
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Old 10.02.2011, 00:19
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Re: Russian Skinheads

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Please abstain from using US terms in this. "Caucasians" in Russia are people from the Caucasus, which means Azerbaijanis, Armenians and Georgians, but of course also Caucasians from the Northern Caucausus like Chechnya etc. Neo-Nazis in Russia of course are Anti-Caucasian absolutely. The Caucasians are lumped together in Moscow as being the "Blacks"
Sorry Wolli but even wiki can sometimes be correct: right. It's an English forum so I didn't want to be very clinical about it. Your definition is obviously very European.
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  #37  
Old 10.02.2011, 00:23
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Re: Russian Skinheads

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Please abstain from using US terms in this. "Caucasians" in Russia are people from the Caucasus, which means Azerbaijanis, Armenians and Georgians, but of course also Caucasians from the Northern Caucausus like Chechnya etc. Neo-Nazis in Russia of course are Anti-Caucasian absolutely. The Caucasians are lumped together in Moscow as being the "Blacks"
Which when you come to think is absolute nonsense as we as a people are all the same....a white person simply is lighter because his/her ancestors migrated to a colder climate and therefore didn't need all that melanin to protect the skin from the sun.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there was a German philosopher (Schopenhauer I believe) who claimed that due to the recessivness of the white gene the world population will become darker over an x amount of years and then ultimately turn black again.
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  #38  
Old 10.02.2011, 00:29
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Re: Russian Skinheads

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Which when you come to think is absolute nonsense as we as a people are all the same....a white person simply is lighter because his/her ancestors migrated to a colder climated and therefore didn't need all that melanin to protect the skin from the sun.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there was a German philosopher (Schopenhauer I believe) who claimed that due to the recessivness of the white gene the world population will become darker over an x amount of years and then ultimately turn black again.
You are thinking about it from a biological aspect, but reality is it is a political term in Russia, as much as it is in the United States. Spaniards used the term "white" (blanco) to differentiate themselves from North Africans. The Term "blue blood" also came from that, being that you were light enough to see the blue arteries in your arm.

Caucasian historically was someone from the Caucasus, race scientist in the 19th century (most of them Europeans) claimed all Europeans came from there due to some evidence having to due with skull shape. The term was not only used for "Europeans" but from anyone in the Middle East (who did not have high black African admixture), Northern India (who was not highly mixed or more Dravidian looking), North Africans, and even Ethiopians and Somalis.

In America we often use it because it sounds less racial and more formal than saying "white".

None of this makes sense, because it was never based on anything rational, it all comes from junk science.

If you want to use the old race science ideas...it is simple.

All Europeans are Caucasians, but not all Caucasians are European.

In the most correct sense, a Caucasian, as was stated, is someone whose ancestors are from the Caucasus mountains.
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  #39  
Old 10.02.2011, 00:33
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Re: Russian Skinheads

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You are thinking about it from a biological aspect, but reality is it is a political term in Russia, as much as it is in the United States. Spaniards used the term "white" (blanco) to differentiate themselves from North Africans. The Term "blue blood" also came from that, being that you were light enough to see the blue arteries in your arm.

Caucasian historically was someone from the Caucasus, race scientist in the 19th century (most of them Europeans) claimed all Europeans came from there due to some evidence having to due with skull shape. The term was not only used for "Europeans" but from anyone in the Middle East (who did not have high black African admixture), Northern India (who was not highly mixed or more Dravidian looking), North Africans, and even Ethiopians and Somalis.

In America we often use it because it sounds less racial and more formal than saying "white".

None of this makes sense, because it was never based on anything rational, it all comes from junk science.

If you want to use the old race science ideas...it is simple.

All Europeans are Caucasians, but not all Caucasians are European.

In the most correct sense, a Caucasian, as was stated, is someone whose ancestors are from the Caucasus mountains.
Couldn't have said it better.
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Old 10.02.2011, 09:13
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Re: Russian Skinheads

"All of them loved Putin."

Most of mu Russian colleagues feel the same. That is perfectly
understandable after the years of Yeltsin treatment.

What I find difficult to accept is the existence of skinheads in a country that defeated Nazism in Europe and suffered from them the most.
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