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  #41  
Old 10.02.2011, 11:09
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Re: Russian Skinheads

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What I find difficult to accept is the existence of skinheads in a country that defeated Nazism in Europe and suffered from them the most.
So what do you make of Israeli Neo-Nazis then?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6985808.stm
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  #42  
Old 10.02.2011, 11:46
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Re: Russian Skinheads

Again, Russia is an enormous and varied country - with huge cultural differences - the fact somebody has or has not experienced problems as described in video/threads, etc - does not mean it does or does not happen in 'Russia'. There are possibly hot spots, and other areas where is little tension. On a tiny scale, same in CH, and on a very less tiny scale in the UK, or US. Impossible to talk about Russia as a whole. In Germany too there are hot spots for neo-nazis. The old industrial towns of the North East, like Rostock, are the worst. Whereas the problem is non-existent in many towns.
If you have an alienated, un-educated local population, unemployment due partly to the fact the locals do not have the necessary skills, combined with immigration of people who are very well-trained, educated - and 'take' the few jobs going- you have a recipe for trouble. Look at the English Defense League in UK - often poorly educated, poorly trained - stuck in the 'old ways' of social security dependence and no ambition or mobility- whilst they see 'foreigners' doing well, becoming successful- and it is a time bomb.

It's very difficult to generalize about CH, but to try and do so about Russia ...
I know many in East Berlin who would just love to go back to the old system. One old lady told me 'what do I want to do with freedom. I am now free to be unemployed, to be poor, to lose the only thing I love (her allotment garden - bulldozed to make space for an office block). Freedom is only good for the rich- what do you want me to do with it?'.
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  #43  
Old 10.02.2011, 12:15
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Re: Russian Skinheads

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Again, Russia is an enormous and varied country - with huge cultural differences - the fact somebody has or has not experienced problems as described in video/threads, etc - does not mean it does or does not happen in 'Russia'. There are possibly hot spots, and other areas where is little tension. On a tiny scale, same in CH, and on a very less tiny scale in the UK, or US. Impossible to talk about Russia as a whole. In Germany too there are hot spots for neo-nazis. The old industrial towns of the North East, like Rostock, are the worst. Whereas the problem is non-existent in many towns.
The phenomenon in places like Rostock is that there is some confused reactionism going on. Under communist rule all the kids were taught mantas like Fascism = bad, Socialism = good and a large part of the state propganda machine was focussed on driving that one particular point home. Hence you get East Germans telling you how they were "liberated" by the Soviets and war monuments all over East Germany gratefully thanking "our liberators". One cynical East German I talked to in Rostock actually said "while our fathers and grandfathers fled before the advancing Red Army in 1945, in spirit, we were already marching on the other side".

The Socialist made a special point of calling the Nazis Fascists. they avoided the term National Socialist whenever possible as they didn't like to suggest it had anything to do with their own "International Socialism", not even in name.

And then came 1989 and the fall of the Berlin Wall and suddenly the Socialist propaganda machine stopped dead its tracks and people were able to say "Socialism was wrong, Socialism is what messed our country up so badly, let's get rid of Socialism". And the more rebellious among them thought "if Socialism was bad, then what the socialists were against must be good".

And then in the next phase, as disillsionment set in and unemployment spread and people started seeing the negative sides of Market Capitalism they started longing back for the good sides of Socialism (such as housing and jobs for everybody and no crime and nice parades and songs) and they remembered that there was this thing called "National Socialism" that the previous lot were so desparately against. Today's NPD is promising some sort of nostalgic return to the DDR but without the anti-fascist slant, ie a combination of the best of both worlds, and that's what's winning them votes.

This is a bit similar to the extreme right in Russia which is combining symbols of the Church with those of Stalin and conveninetly forgetting that Stalin was an enemy of the Church.
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  #44  
Old 10.02.2011, 12:16
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Re: Russian Skinheads

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So what do you make of Israeli Neo-Nazis then?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6985808.stm

The Israeli neoNazis are mainly Russians.

Israel made it easy for Russians with any Jewish ancestry to migrate there after the Cold War. Many of those people are not really "Jewish" they just wanted to get out of t he Soviet Union and many of them just felt it is easy to go to Israel before moving to Western Europe or the U.S. I know a guy who did this.

Many of those "Jewish Russians" are actually just typical antisemitic Russians.

See this:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003...a.chrismcgreal

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The Israeli attorney general has launched a criminal investigation into a local neo-Nazi website that jokes about gas chambers, advocates shooting Palestinians and denies that the Holocaust happened. The website, published in Russian by a group calling itself the White Israeli Union is believed to be the work of immigrants from the former Soviet Union who claimed to be Jews when they entered Israel but who are blamed for the sharp rise in anti-semitism and advocacy of white supremacy.
  • Among other things, the site encourages readers to join an Israeli army combat unit to kill Arabs. Its pictures include one of a man in Israeli military uniform with his arm raised in the Hitler salute.
    The website says it is run by "Ilya from Haifa and Andrei from Arad", who describe themselves as "people who have pride in themselves and are sick of living among the dirty bastards".
    They have drawn up a list of "enemies" collectively derided as "black arses". They include Jews, Arabs, foreign workers and, tellingly, immigrants from Muslim republics of the former Soviet Union.
    About a million Russians and others from former Soviet states have emigrated to Israel over the past 10 years.
So these people are obviously "fake Jew" passport whores, not real Israeli Jews.
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  #45  
Old 10.02.2011, 12:20
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Re: Russian Skinheads

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What I find difficult to accept is the existence of skinheads in a country that defeated Nazism in Europe and suffered from them the most.
Well, poverty is a powerful motivational tool. These people are mostly poor, disgruntled and very easy to manipulate and unite by those who are better off, but share the same twisted idealogies.

They are a bunch of cowards at the end of the day - always attacking a lone person of a different skin colour in groups - never alone. Although the documentary posted by LIB stated that majority of the neo nazis now live in Russia, I for one, am not too alarmed by this. The world will never forget the horrific atrocities committed by the Nazis during WW2. These people are just these has-beens who hold on to the past, refusing to move with the times to embrace the ever-changing world. But imho, the Russian government will never let it get out of hand for the sake of international relations.
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  #46  
Old 10.02.2011, 12:40
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Re: Russian Skinheads

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What I find difficult to accept is the existence of skinheads in a country that defeated Nazism in Europe and suffered from them the most.
Ideologically I can understand it. If your parents hate Nazis the best way to rebel in your adolescence is to become one.

Also historically the case is not as clear cut as it may seem at first. Goebbels for example was a great admirer of Russia in his youth and wrote a number of essays in praise of Russia and didn't really change his tack until Hitler forced him to.
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  #47  
Old 12.02.2011, 20:13
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Re: Russian Skinheads

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I think as the world shrinks the problem becomes more public but I think that the number of these sorts of bigots and idiots is actually falling.
Hopefully that's the case and it's more a growing awareness rather and maybe people being less willing to let such behaviour go.

I was 'lucky' enough to share a train carriage with a bunch of EDL, who chanted racist abuse throughout the journey... they have the cheek to pretend they're not racially motivated.
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  #48  
Old 13.02.2011, 10:19
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Re: Russian Skinheads

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"Been to Russia" ? I only was in Moscow for 5 days back in 2001 (Moscow Airshow) and so cannot seriously help you. But what I saw allows me to say that rather many Russians are seriously serious drinkers So that I attribute some "violence" simply to some "intoxication". Overall however the Russians are the most hospitable folks on earth. I at the airshow at around 11.50 captured a nice table and chair on the lawn outside the Ilyushin "chalet", got some eating and a nice bottle of most excellent Crimea Champagne (CHF 3.-- = one litre) and settled down. Then the Russians came in and took their seats and tables around me but mostly with Vodka. I got integrated within moments and was continually invited to cheers "Nastrovye" from all sides.

Russia having some most serious problems ? No surprise to me, I only object to generalisations. It basically is a fine nation.
And how can you judge it is a fine national "for all" when you don't stand out dramatically on a physical level?

Being a visible minority and an invisible minority is quite different.

IN a slightly different way, Japan was a fine nation for me, when i stayed there for a year, because I was assumed to be African American in Tokyo. It was not a fine nation for ethnic Koreans who could not pass for Japanese or ethnic Chinese. Usually by accent or language they would be treated extremely poorly by a large amount of people. I never was. Also there was a reason Africans there would (e.g. Nigerians) would like and say they were Americans (Japanese can't tell their accent usually or appearance), because if they didn't they would be treated like garbage.

So there are many ways to make "broad generalizations" on limited experiences.
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  #49  
Old 13.02.2011, 10:29
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Re: Russian Skinheads

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Well, poverty is a powerful motivational tool. These people are mostly poor, disgruntled and very easy to manipulate and unite by those who are better off, but share the same twisted idealogies.

They are a bunch of cowards at the end of the day - always attacking a lone person of a different skin colour in groups - never alone. Although the documentary posted by LIB stated that majority of the neo nazis now live in Russia, I for one, am not too alarmed by this. The world will never forget the horrific atrocities committed by the Nazis during WW2. These people are just these has-beens who hold on to the past, refusing to move with the times to embrace the ever-changing world. But imho, the Russian government will never let it get out of hand for the sake of international relations.
Poverty is not the reason.

I studied abroad in China for 6 months while an undergraduate at University and been back to China 3 times since (to Beijing, Shanghai, Chengdu) and I have never once felt in danger for my life. Not once has a Chinese person threatened me.

I was stared at a lot. I speak intermediate Mandarin, but even if I spoke fluent Mandarin no one would EVER assume I'm anything but a foreigner (Laowai, waiguoren)...I've walked the street with Chinese women (and Japanese, who are often assumed to be "rich Chinese" until they open their mouth), not once was anyone hostile. The only experience I had with hostility in China was not directly toward me but toward my ex-wife, who is Japanese. They found out she was Japanese at a restaurant in Shanghai and refused to serve a xiaoriben or a ribenguaizi (Little Japanese, Japanese Devil, but they said I could eat their, I left immediately after cursing at them). That is due to WWII and how bad the Japanese treated locals in Shanghai and neighboring Nanjing. The restaurant, like most in China, was a family owed business.

The average Chinese person makes about US$4,000 years, about 3-4X less than the average Russian, and the poverty rate is MUCH higher. I've been to rural areas in Sichuan, same experience, actually people were even more friendly than Shanghai.

It is not due to poverty that some Russians, some Easter Germans, etc act this way. My take is (after traveling to several nations in Asia and Europe) is that Europeans are xenophobic and generally have a superiority complex to people they perceive as nonWestern or just foreign.

Hell in December I went to Egypt and then down to Ethiopia. Ethiopia is one of the poorest nations in the world, and although I'm African AMerican, I do stand out their physical, almost everyone knew I was foreign, and not one person even got remotely violent or aggressive with me in the 10 days I was there. Not in Addis Ababa, not in Axum, and not in Lalibela. Not once.

Less not use the excuse of poverty and ignorance. You would be pressed to find Russians as poor and ignorant in Moscow or St. Petersburg as people in Axum, Ethiopa; Chengdu (or surrounding areas), China; or Luxor, Egypt.

It is culture. Why so many Euros can't see and admit to this I don't know. The West is a funny place, especially Europe, while there are more opprotunities here for nonEuro descendants than other places (I mean everyone knows no-Non Saud will be leading any major Saudi company ever, and their is racial (or maybe feature) discrimination in Latin America that is outrageous in most nations) those nations don't have a history of violence that Europe does with skinheads and other hate groups. Europe has a strange duality and the further East and South you go in the continent the worse it seems to get.

Last edited by AmericanGotWorkVisa; 13.02.2011 at 10:54.
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  #50  
Old 13.02.2011, 11:12
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Re: Russian Skinheads

Interesting thread. Actually, there is a reason Russia is low on my places to visit for this exact reason. Some people have said it's just a documentary and there would be more in the news otherwise. Interesting, cuz there has been enough mention in the media I follow. And having been involved in international education, it is quite common knowledge of the high level of attacks on foreign students of the darker variety. I also have several friends in Moscow and Kiev (Ukraine) who confirm these details and agree I couldn't stagger home from the bar on my own without fearing for my safety.

The drunken disenchantment of male youth and the associated racism in Russia is well documented I would have thought.
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Old 13.02.2011, 11:13
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Re: Russian Skinheads

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Poverty is not the reason.
It is culture. Why so many Euros can't see and admit to this I don't know. The West is a funny place, especially Europe, while there are more opprotunities here for nonEuro descendants than other places (I mean everyone knows no-Non Saud will be leading any major Saudi company ever, and their is racial (or maybe feature) discrimination in Latin America that is outrageous in most nations) those nations don't have a history of violence that Europe does with skinheads and other hate groups. Europe has a strange duality and the further East and South you go in the continent the worse it seems to get.
[/B]
That got me thinking for a while, maybe it is because unlike America, that after a relative short period of unrest became the united states, Europe was until the middle of the last century a strongly divided continent that had been at constant war since the stone age and there is a lot of residue resentment though out all forms of society.
You feel it, I feel it, we are in economic decline, and fear is the key. From the lower middle-class worried about falling back into poverty come the Brown Shirts.
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