Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath" - Page 13

MrVertigo · #**241** 16.03.2011, 14:36

	Quote:	Pashosh
	(...) Why would any western leader intervene in Libya ? it's a lose-lose situation.

Everytime a bloodthirsty dictator massacres his own people, we should ask ourselves if it's morally acceptable. "Never again" really or is it only a complaint litanie?

Pashosh · #**242** 16.03.2011, 14:47

	Quote:	MrVertigo
	Everytime a bloodthirsty dictator massacres his own people, we should ask ourselves if it's morally acceptable. "Never again" really or is it only a complaint litanie?

Absolutely - That's why George W. Bush and Tony Blair won the Nobel Peace prize & world recognition for toppling Saddam (who killed a lot more people than Gaddafi).

MrVertigo · #**243** 16.03.2011, 14:52

	Quote:	Pashosh
	Absolutely - That's why George W. Bush and Tony Blair won the Nobel Peace prize & world recognition for toppling Saddam (who killed a lot more people than Gaddafi).

Give me your oil and I shall give you freedom (to die) is not the archetypal moral action.

PS: things are getting nasty between Kadhaffi and Sarkozy.

#**244** 16.03.2011, 14:53

Strange to be asking western powers to intervene, so that they can be blamed for everything later.

Silly victim games.

Morally, I'd like to see the US intervene. But pragmatically, as the whole region is prone to blame the US and Israel for all their problems, while not solving their own problems, I see that not going out on a limb is the wise thing to do. If only they were better friends would I agree with unilateral US action.

MrVertigo · #**245** 16.03.2011, 14:55

	Quote:	Phos
	Strange to be asking western powers to intervene, so that they can be blamed for everything later. Silly victim games. Morally, I'd like to see the US intervene. But pragmatically, as the whole region is prone to blame the US and Israel for all their problems, while not solving their own problems, I see that not going out on a limb is the wise thing to do. If only they were better friends would I support unilateral US action.

The only thing that remains for the US & western countries is to pack and leave the region definitely without interfering. If that's really your logic of thought.

#**246** 16.03.2011, 15:01

	Quote:	MrVertigo
	The only thing that remains for the US & western countries is to pack and leave the region definitely without interfering. If that's really your logic of thought.

The US has been providing humanitarian support. I agree with that. Military intervention is another story. If the world community agrees to it, which is the requirement stated by the US, then it is appropriate.

No point arming a group only for them to use those arms against you later on. Some people would have their interests better served if they only would have kept their mouths quiet.

The question to ask is where is the Arab League in this situation?

Pashosh · #**247** 16.03.2011, 15:11

	Quote:	MrVertigo
	The only thing that remains for the US & western countries is to pack and leave the region definitely without interfering. If that's really your logic of thought.

Western forces intervene: The Vertigos of this world will say it's for the oil, they don't - the Vertigos blame them for not saving civilians.

like I said - a lose-lose situation.

PaddyG · #**248** 16.03.2011, 15:14

	Quote:	Phos
	The question to ask is where is the Arab League in this situation?

To give them (some) credit, they did vote for a no-fly zone, which was supported by Cameron and Sarkozy. Shame the usual suspects (Germany, russia, China) were against it. I'm not sure how many Arab League member have the resources to uphold a no-fly zone, probably only Saudi.

#**249** 16.03.2011, 15:17

	Quote:	Pashosh
	Western forces intervene: The Vertigos of this world will say it's for the oil, they don't - the Vertigos blame them for not saving civilians. like I said - a lose-lose situation.

Classic co-dependent reasoning.

MrVertigo · #**250** 16.03.2011, 15:29

	Quote:	Pashosh
	Western forces intervene: The Vertigos of this world will say it's for the oil, they don't - the Vertigos blame them for not saving civilians. like I said - a lose-lose situation.

I know you like extremes, but the world is not binary.

Pashosh · #**251** 16.03.2011, 15:44

Thank you for suggesting a feasible, humane & economical solution.

#**252** 16.03.2011, 16:54

This is what ElBaradei said in Feb.

	Quote:
	Mohamed ElBaradei, political reformist and former IAEA chief, has severely criticized the Arab League for its weak stance on the Libyan crackdown on protesters calling for the ouster of Libyan President Muammar Qadhafi. Using his account on Twitter, ElBaradei said the credibility of the Arab League had been eroded and there is a need to build a new Arab bloc. "The lives we're losing in Libya are a disgrace to every Arab," he added. Libyan security authorities have responded violently to protesters calling for ousting the Libyan regime. The protests, which erupted on 17 February in the east of the country, have now extended to the capital Tripoli. Libyan opposition leaders and eyewitnesses have said that hundreds of protesters were killed in aircraft raids in several places in Libya. The Arabic Network for Human Rights Information (ANHRI) had called on Secretary-General of the Arab League Amr Moussa to condemn Arab leaders who are killing and intimidating people who aspire to democracy and freedom. In a statement issued on Saturday, ANHRI said Moussa should take at least a little of his time to denounce Arab leaders' oppression, and clearly express his rejection of the current events in Libya, Bahrain and Yemen.

http://www.almasryalyoum.com/en/node/326470

marton · #**253** 16.03.2011, 19:51

	Quote:	Phos
	Strange to be asking western powers to intervene, so that they can be blamed for everything later. Silly victim games. Morally, I'd like to see the US intervene. But pragmatically, as the whole region is prone to blame the US and Israel for all their problems, while not solving their own problems, I see that not going out on a limb is the wise thing to do. If only they were better friends would I agree with unilateral US action.

Agreed
Amongst the many problems of intervention is "once you have ousted the leader then who takes over?" Libya would be more confused than Iraq.

Mowvich · #**254** 16.03.2011, 20:09

	Quote:	Pashosh
	The rebels are losing - Why shouldn't the Egyptian army, which is: 1. So fond of protecting civilians. 2. Better equipped than the Libyan army. 3. Not a western army - but financially supported by the U.S Intervene ?

Cause the Egyptian army have to take care of an entire country at the moment including elections, sectarian violence, security and foreign policies in addition to their original role defending the borders and securing the country.

Pashosh · #**255** 16.03.2011, 21:03

	Quote:	Mowvich
	Cause the Egyptian army have to take care of an entire country at the moment including elections, sectarian violence, security and foreign policies in addition to their original role defending the borders and securing the country.

Yes - much safer to stay in Cairo and do virginity tests on Saidi protestors.

But surely securing a friendly regime in Libya will help Egypt more than parting local Labia ?

Mowvich · #**256** 16.03.2011, 21:09

	Quote:	Pashosh
	Yes - much safer to stay in Cairo and do virginity tests on Saidi protestors. But surely securing a friendly regime in Libya will help Egypt more than parting local Labia ?

You just enjoy it, don't you!!

Pashosh · #**257** 16.03.2011, 21:13

Egyptians were enraged when Israel fought Hamas in gaza - many egyptians want to open the border with Gaza to help civilians.

Well - Libyans suffer more, how about helping them ?

Mowvich · #**258** 16.03.2011, 21:22

	Quote:	Pashosh
	Egyptians were enraged when Israel fought Hamas in gaza - many egyptians want to open the border with Gaza to help civilians. Well - Libyans suffer more, how about helping them ?

We are actually supporting aid and helping fleeing Libyans, I were personally on the border of Saloum with lots of other people 3 weeks ago helping people coming from Libya regardless of their nationality and sending back medications / food / aids with the buses / trucks bringing the people to send back to Benghazi, military were with us civilians and did more than they're required to do.

FYI, our military's / country's policy is not to assault and raid to solve problems, we don't go bombing civilians and kids claiming it's defense.

Pashosh · #**259** 16.03.2011, 21:38

	Quote:	Mowvich
	We are actually supporting aid and helping fleeing Libyans, I were personally on the border of Saloum with lots of other people 3 weeks ago helping people coming from Libya regardless of their nationality and sending back medications / food / aids with the buses / trucks bringing the people to send back to Benghazi, military were with us civilians and did more than they're required to do. .

If Gaddafi wins you can expect a lot more refugees.

	Quote:	Mowvich
	FYI, our military's / country's policy is not to assault and raid to solve problems, we don't go bombing civilians and kids claiming it's defense.

So it must have been another Egypt which used Mustard gas in Yemen

Mowvich · #**260** 16.03.2011, 21:40

	Quote:	Pashosh
	If Gaddafi wins you can expect a lot more refugees.

Libyan citizens are always welcome in Egypt before and after Gaddhafi and regardless of the situation.

	Quote:	Pashosh
	So it must have been another Egypt which used Mustard gas in Yemen

Yes, it's Egypt model 2011