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  #341  
Old 20.03.2011, 21:09
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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Quote " Influential Muslim cleric Yusuf al-Qaradawi issued a fatwa on Monday that any Libyan soldier who can shoot dead embattled leader Moamer Kadhafi should do so "to rid Libya of him."
"Whoever in the Libyan army is able to shoot a bullet at Mr Kadhafi should do so," Qaradawi, an Egyptian-born cleric who is usually based in Qatar, told Al-Jazeera television.
He also told Libyan soldiers "not to obey orders to strike at your own people," and urged Libyan ambassadors around the world to dissociate themselves from Kadhafi's regime."

Qaradawi can't be all bad!
He is yet another shitty cleric who knows which bandwagons should be jumped on. But if he decides to lead suicide mission to kill Gaddafi - fair enough
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  #342  
Old 20.03.2011, 21:17
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

I couldn't make out the whole story in the radio, but apparently, this latest military action is once again being called "interventionist" and "imperialistic" in some Arab quarters. I mean, wtf? They asked for it.

Things like this make me wonder if it is even worth striving for some civilized discourse with them.
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  #343  
Old 20.03.2011, 21:25
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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I couldn't make out the whole story in the radio, but apparently, this latest military action is once again being called "interventionist" and "imperialistic" in some Arab quarters. I mean, wtf? They asked for it.

Things like this make me wonder if it is even worth striving for some civilized discourse with them.
This is the type of sentence that can generate a heated debate. All government (incl. the ones that you consider as advanced & civilized & democratic) have often a gap between what they say and what they do. The list of examples would be too long for this thread. The question is why do you tolerate it for some governments and not for "arab governments". Do you think they are inferior?

Apparently:
- the "arab league" gave agreement for a "no-fly zone" action and not bombing.
- some arab govs need to show to their own people that they do not support "imperialistic" actions. Whether it reflects really what they think about it remains another story.
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  #344  
Old 20.03.2011, 21:31
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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Apparently:
- the "arab league" gave agreement for a "no-fly zone" action and not bombing.
- some arab govs need to show to their own people that they do not support "imperialistic" actions. Whether it reflects really what they think about it remains another story.
You see, that is two-faced. There is NO WAY to enforce a no-fly zone without bombing. The first step in enforcing a no-fly zone is to bomb their radar facilities and anti-aircraft positions.

The idea that you westerners go fly over there with one hand behind your back while we watch is ludicrous.

By the way, this was clearly explained. Bombing is a pre-requisite for a No-fly zone. THEY KNEW THAT.
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  #345  
Old 20.03.2011, 21:31
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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I couldn't make out the whole story in the radio, but apparently, this latest military action is once again being called "interventionist" and "imperialistic" in some Arab quarters. I mean, wtf? They asked for it.

Things like this make me wonder if it is even worth striving for some civilized discourse with them.
True & true

Couple of funny things not that the murder of so many innocents by Gadaffi is funny;

Chavez has warned Obama not to do the same to Venezuela quote;- "With Venezuela, don't even think about it, Mr. Obama" So it seems like Chavez has got the message about what can happen to dictators.

& the newspaper reporters in Tripoli who were reporting about the "voluntary human shield" at Gadaffi's HQ in Tripoli are now saying that most of the people have drifted away after they heard that the coalition are using real weapons.
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  #346  
Old 20.03.2011, 21:33
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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... The question is why do you tolerate it for some governments and not for "arab governments". Do you think they are inferior?
The whole process of middle east revolutions is because Arab governemnts are inferior.
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  #347  
Old 20.03.2011, 21:35
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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You see, that is two-faced. There is NO WAY to enforce a no-fly zone without bombing. The first step in enforcing a no-fly zone is to bomb their radar facilities and anti-aircraft positions.

The idea that you westerners go fly over there with one hand behind your back while we watch is ludicrous.

By the way, this was clearly explained. Bombing is a pre-requisite for a No-fly zone. THEY KNEW THAT.
do you genuinely believe that western coalition went only because some arab countries asked for it?
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  #348  
Old 20.03.2011, 21:38
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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The whole process of middle east revolutions is because Arab governemnts are inferior.
define "are inferior".

Do you consider chinese gov. as inferior as well?
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  #349  
Old 20.03.2011, 21:42
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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do you genuinely believe that western coalition went only because some arab countries asked for it?
Oh no... here we go again....

MrVertigo, the US refused to take action and made it clear that they will do nothing unless there is broad consensus. The Arab League hurried their deliberation as the Lybian opposition was running out of time. Gaddaffi was on the verge of wiping them out. Another day, and he would have taken over Benghazi.

Like I said earlier... I don't know why we should deal with this region's problems for them. They really ought to deal with their own. The only part of this I agree with is the effort to save Lybian lives. But I suppose you would hold me for some ulterior motive as well.
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  #350  
Old 20.03.2011, 21:44
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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define "are inferior".

Do you consider chinese gov. as inferior as well?
Inferior: of lesser quality. Arab governments failed their population is almost everything: education, health, income, personal freedom.

Egypt was as poor as China in the 50s. Egypt is still poor - China isn't.
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  #351  
Old 20.03.2011, 21:50
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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(...)

Like I said earlier... I don't know why we should deal with this region's problems for them. They really ought to deal with their own. (...).
Here I do have a different reading of the story.
I think the whole region is important for US & Europe. As a superpower, US can't just ignore what's happening there. All the commercial/political deals between europe, US & Kadhaffi is a proof of it: Elmegrahi release in exchange of juicy oil deals with Kadhaffi. Sarkozy & Cameron were very active in getting a UN resolution to bomb him ( for me this is fine) because they have a genuine interest to get rid of Kadhaffi. The swift recognition by Sarkozy of the liberation front of Benghazi was done to position him with the future potential new gov. of Libya.
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  #352  
Old 20.03.2011, 21:51
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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do you genuinely believe that western coalition went only because some arab countries asked for it?

You know, the passive-aggressive, bait and switch contradictions from these so called governments remind me of a manipulative shyster trying to score a dime. Engaging some to a commitment, then arguing and accusing about it later is not very respectable. Yeah, I know they want to score domestic political points. But from an international political perspective, it is like dealing with a compulsive lying schizophrenic.
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Old 20.03.2011, 21:53
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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Here I do have a different reading of the story.
I think the whole region is important for US & Europe. As a superpower, US can't just ignore what's happening there. All the commercial/political deals between europe, US & Kadhaffi is a proof of it: Elmegrahi release in exchange of juicy oil deals with Kadhaffi. Sarkozy & Cameron were very active in getting a UN resolution to bomb him ( for me this is fine) because they have a genuine interest to get rid of Kadhaffi. The swift recognition by Sarkozy of the liberation front of Benghazi was done to position him with the future potential new gov. of Libya.

I can certainly agree with you that there are economic interests from France and Britain. It is no coincident that they lead this. Notice that the US, which gets practically none of its oil from Lybia sat in the back seat?
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  #354  
Old 20.03.2011, 22:00
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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But from an international political perspective, it is like dealing with a compulsive lying schizophrenic.
Wikileaks documents proved this - Arab governments lied to their public (Example: Their public attitude towards Iran was the opposite of their private attitude or the Israeli-palestinian negotion papers).
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  #355  
Old 20.03.2011, 22:01
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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Inferior: of lesser quality. Arab governments failed their population is almost everything: education, health, income, personal freedom.

Egypt was as poor as China in the 50s. Egypt is still poor - China isn't.
Discussion for another thread, but it's not reflected and supported by facts and data from the UN human development index. if you compare china to Tunisia, Libya or Algeria, UAE, Bahrain, Kuwait.
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  #356  
Old 20.03.2011, 22:20
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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Discussion for another thread, but it's not reflected and supported by facts and data from the UN human development index. if you compare china to Tunisia, Libya or Algeria, UAE, Bahrain, Kuwait.
You brought the subject of Arab governemts inferiorty - and when you were proven wrong you claim it's off topic.

China is now a world power, while the Arabs can not even manage to stop an internal tribal war.

Human development: It's amazing that countries with almost unlimited natural wealth are just about the same as the poorest members of the EU. A clear sign of inferior government quality in the Arab world.
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  #357  
Old 20.03.2011, 22:32
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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You brought the subject of Arab governemts inferiorty - and when you were proven wrong you claim it's off topic.
I suggested to continue discussion in another thread in order to avoid derailing this one. I asked for your definition of "inferior" and not claiming any wrong or right. You can prove me later "wrong" once the topic is discussed and once I claimed something opposing your ideas. Your truth is not THE truth. That's the idea behind debating.

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China is now a world power, while the Arabs can not even manage to stop an internal tribal war.
China is one country, one government. The "arabs" are 22 different countries sharing a language. You can't compare.

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Human development: It's amazing that countries with almost unlimited natural wealth are just about the same as the poorest members of the EU. A clear sign of inferior government quality in the Arab world.
The index rates 170 countries and the top 40 places are trusted by european/western countries. So there are 130 inferior governments according to your wording.
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  #358  
Old 20.03.2011, 22:34
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

Hey guys, let's keep this thread for Libya please.
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  #359  
Old 20.03.2011, 22:37
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

Un-freaking-believable

Arab League condemns broad bombing campaign in Libya

This is what I was talking about before they started.
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Old 20.03.2011, 22:39
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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I suggested to continue discussion in another thread in order to avoid derailing this one. I asked clarification for "inferior" and not claiming any wrong or right. You can prove me "wrong" once the topic is discussed and not just based on your claims. Your truth is not THE truth. That's the idea behind debating,

China is one country, one government. The "arabs" are 22 different countries sharing a language. You can't compare.


The index rates 170 countries and the top 40 places are trusted by european/western countries. So there are 130 inferior governments according to your wording.
You keep doing it - claiming it's off topic, yet continue to argue with ever-shifting goal posts.

So what's your take about the war in Libya ?
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