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  #401  
Old 21.03.2011, 14:25
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

Tamoil is owned by the Libyan government, as opposed to the LSE (London school of Economics) which was only rented
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  #402  
Old 21.03.2011, 17:47
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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About "interviews with any of the expats who were living there till these last couple of weeks"

According to your previous posts these would be the people partying on the beach while many of the people in the country lived such desperate lives that they are happy to die for the opportunity of democracy?
Are you are asking me a question? Or are you trying to make some sort of connection between what I did actually write and something I know very little of? Partying on the beach was NOT my scene when living in Libya and therefore something I have little knowledge of, apart from recalling that I certainly saw plenty of locals enjoying the beaches - it appeared to be a nice, relaxed way for people without much money, to spend a pleasant afternoon.

I am also hoping that the young men I frequently talked with - the ones who had dreams of a nonexistant Hollywood version of the western world, were not carried away by the situation, and are still alive.
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  #403  
Old 21.03.2011, 22:01
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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I concur, but something's changed this time. The ME is one step away from real democracy; amr moussa and the like are that step. They seem to thrive on the colonial past of the West to promote their agendas. Had he been credible, he would have criticized his own president i.e dictator Mubarak -he had 30 yrs to do it -whom he befriended instead. This man is in no position to speak to us about what is right and what is wrong. The coalition's helping LIbyans and under its ranks are other Arab nations who are contributing and these are: Morocco, Qatar, Jordan, KSA and UAE.

We are witnessing the demise of the era of suicidal terrorists. The West needs to follow this path of helping democratize the ME without getting directly involved but rather thru no-fly zones if need be, freezing dictators' assets & providing moral support.

People like Amr Moussa are known for their passiveness hypocrisy. The Arab league criticized the coalition that went to rescue muslim Bosnians and Kosovars from the butcher Milosovic while clowns like Moussa were still "sceptical" of imperialistic intentions...
Amr Moussa is in the midst of his presidential election campaign. He does not want to be seen as pro-Khaddafi, he does not want to be seen as anti-Khaddafi, he does not want to be seen as pro-West but also does not want to be seen as anti-West. He however WANTED to have the attack against Khaddafi, as he does not want to have Khaddafi right on the Egyptian border.

And also Nicolas Sarkozy is campaigning. He had to show himself being a decision-maker and leader of relevance, plus the grandeur of the Grande Nation

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  #404  
Old 22.03.2011, 05:11
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

This is very immature of me, but I can't help it. Ghaddafi's translator isn't doing him any favours, he makes Ghaddafi sound so much like Borat....." But if you cheat on me.. I crush you"

Ghaddafi might have the last laugh when Libya become a quagmire, but I hope not. I hope that Ghaddafi's forces turn.

I also hope, crazy as it might seem, that the Muslim brotherhood get a substantial part of the vote in in Egypt yet remain true to democratic principles.
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  #405  
Old 22.03.2011, 05:18
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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Amr Moussa is in the midst of his presidential election campaign. He does not want to be seen as pro-Khaddafi, he does not want to be seen as anti-Khaddafi, he does not want to be seen as pro-West but also does not want to be seen as anti-West. He however WANTED to have the attack against Khaddafi, as he does not want to have Khaddafi right on the Egyptian border.

And also Nicolas Sarkozy is campaigning. He had to show himself being a decision-maker and leader of relevance, plus the grandeur of the Grande Nation
Sarkozy has a Napoleon complex, but at least it wasn't the US as the primary aggressor this time. Perhaps he will succeed where Napoleon failed in North Africa? At least we might get some good food out of it- a French/Algerian/Chinese fusion sounds nice!
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  #406  
Old 22.03.2011, 05:28
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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Are you are asking me a question? Or are you trying to make some sort of connection between what I did actually write and something I know very little of? Partying on the beach was NOT my scene when living in Libya and therefore something I have little knowledge of, apart from recalling that I certainly saw plenty of locals enjoying the beaches - it appeared to be a nice, relaxed way for people without much money, to spend a pleasant afternoon.

I am also hoping that the young men I frequently talked with - the ones who had dreams of a nonexistant Hollywood version of the western world, were not carried away by the situation, and are still alive.
Talking about Hollywood version, some News Channels are really revelling in all the attack plan maps and weaponry, it's a bit sickening. I never understood how some people enjoy war. I wish Ghaddafi would do everyone a favour and just rollover/ surrender. Send in Pamela Anderson.
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  #407  
Old 22.03.2011, 22:46
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

Interesting articles in private eye (here and here) about the U.K links to Gaddafi (and the other shining beacon of human rights, Bahrain).

Gaddafi himself is still hanging on - airpower alone will not be enough to defeat him, and the Rebels don't seem to be making much progress yet.
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  #408  
Old 23.03.2011, 01:07
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

well I remember like yesterday that GAdhafi set his tent up in PAris and welcomed on red carpets by Sarkozy...
Also remember Berlusconi was kissing his hands and Obama was in his arms..

another nice quote was from Putin who said;

"The Security Council resolution is deficient and flawed; it allows everything and is reminiscent of a medieval call for a crusade," Putin told workers at a ballistic missile factory in the Urals region. "It effectively allows intervention in a sovereign state."
"Now it's Libya's turn -- under the pretext of protecting civilians," the premier said. "Where is the logic and conscience? There is neither."



Gadhafi was sure a crazy man, but he's been there for almost 40 years...
At an Arab summit in 1988, he wore a white glove on his right hand to avoid shaking "bloodstained hands", and the next year he blew smoke from a cigar into the face of the late king Fahd of Saudi Arabia.

That explains why Saudis dont say a word, also just purchased a contract of 35 billion USD of military inventory (jets, missiles etc.)

Now Italians are talking, "France will suck up all oil of Libya and ITaly will have to take care of immigrants coming from Libya"

Well, Does any country really have an agenda on Libya War? A road map?
Precautions for a terrorist potential? Do US and France really help Al-Quaida indirectly?
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  #409  
Old 23.03.2011, 10:39
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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Interesting articles in private eye (here and here) about the U.K links to Gaddafi (and the other shining beacon of human rights, Bahrain).

Gaddafi himself is still hanging on - airpower alone will not be enough to defeat him, and the Rebels don't seem to be making much progress yet.

Gaddafi's arms purchases listed in the link seem like small beer compared to the multi billions that Saudi buy.

I think it will be a slow process for the rebels; the army factions that joined the rebels will have to invest a lot of time in recruiting & training before they can think about moving against well-defended cities. It is unlikely that people will rise up in against Gaddafi in the loyalist cities because of the ruthless & savage repression against them.
Just my 2 pennorth'
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  #410  
Old 23.03.2011, 10:59
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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Gaddafi's arms purchases listed in the link seem like small beer compared to the multi billions that Saudi buy.

I think it will be a slow process for the rebels; the army factions that joined the rebels will have to invest a lot of time in recruiting & training before they can think about moving against well-defended cities. It is unlikely that people will rise up in against Gaddafi in the loyalist cities because of the ruthless & savage repression against them.
Just my 2 pennorth'
What you guys are not realising is that, Gaddafi is still supported by majority of the Libyan population, whether rightfully or wrong. Rebels is a small band.

Also the alliances are along "tribal" lines not just political affiliations. Lets say rebels win and establish the government, do you think the pro-Gaddafi elements will just sit quiet and let them do it?

There are only 2 options: 1) A longer lasting civil war 2) Break up of Libya in 2-3 different smaller, more manageable States.

But then, that is going to send wrong signals to the other African and Middle Eastern countries. What would be next is an Arms race in that region, realising that unless you have big bombs, your sovereignity is always at stake. World notices that how the "International Community" avoids interfering in Israel, Iran, North Korea and Pakistan because they have big guns too.
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  #411  
Old 23.03.2011, 11:12
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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What you guys are not realising is that, Gaddafi is still supported by majority of the Libyan population, whether rightfully or wrong. Rebels is a small band.

Also the alliances are along "tribal" lines not just political affiliations. Lets say rebels win and establish the government, do you think the pro-Gaddafi elements will just sit quiet and let them do it?

There are only 2 options: 1) A longer lasting civil war 2) Break up of Libya in 2-3 different smaller, more manageable States.

But then, that is going to send wrong signals to the other African and Middle Eastern countries. What would be next is an Arms race in that region, realising that unless you have big bombs, your sovereignity is always at stake. World notices that how the "International Community" avoids interfering in Israel, Iran, North Korea and Pakistan because they have big guns too.
About "What you guys are not realising is that, Gaddafi is still supported by majority of the Libyan population"
Where do you get this information from? I am not saying you are incorrect just interested in your source.
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  #412  
Old 23.03.2011, 12:09
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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About "What you guys are not realising is that, Gaddafi is still supported by majority of the Libyan population"
Where do you get this information from? I am not saying you are incorrect just interested in your source.
What would be your source to claim otherwise, or anything on that matter?

Knowing that Gaddafi has ruled the country for about 40 years and to my knowledge there were no Free Elections or Census done during that period. Even if there was, it would have showed him as the Representative of the majority.

In the absence of any credible Election results, any claims on this subject would be presumptuous, especially in times of war and afterwards the winner writes the History.
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Old 23.03.2011, 12:16
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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About "What you guys are not realising is that, Gaddafi is still supported by majority of the Libyan population"
Where do you get this information from? I am not saying you are incorrect just interested in your source.
What would be your source to claim otherwise, or anything on that matter?
Or to put it another way.

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"It was a totally unsubstantiated claim that I made. I cannot back it up wîth any credible data.

I will try to blag my way out of this by challenging your claim. I hope no-one notices that you didn't actually make any claims."
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  #414  
Old 23.03.2011, 13:10
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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Or to put it another way.
What was the dialogue the character of Vinnie Jones said in Lock Stock and 2 Smoking Barrels when those 2 guys approached him in a pub with fake guns?

If you could read properly and comprehend, as I said, only the results of a free elections can be the credible source as to who has majority in Libya or any country. So anything said for or against would be biased and presumptuous, where is the blagging bit?

The claim I made, however, was based on certain facts:

- He has ruled the country for 40 years.
- Many EU countries have been doing business deals with Gaddafi, which means he was the Representative of the country or are we saying Eu does business with Traitors and Murderers?

- He still has control over most of the country, if Benghazi falls it would over almost all of Libya then.
- No one major in his chain of command has defected yet, as in Yemen.
- African Union is against the actions in Libya and Gaddafi was the biggest financer of many African countries, so he has a political clout.

- Amr Moussa is also avoiding having an open anti or pro Gaddafi stance, which again means he still has political clout.

- A hundred thousand protesting on the streets is significant, few hundred dying can make headlines but out of a Million, its still (10%) minority. What about Bahrain and the rebels/protestors there?
In Libya you support the Protestors but in Bahrain you support the Ruler?

- Also, like I said, the majority or political influence is based on (inter) Tribal affiliations, and once they see Gaddafi is going to loose (because of outside intervention), they can always switch alliances to secure their share in the Oil proceeds in the New Libya.

- If majority was against Gaddafi then why do the "rebels" need outside military assistance?

Why dont you go back to Googling punch lines for your jokes on various topics, certainly you are out of your depth on politics and history, if not even simple comprehension of arguments.

Last edited by Wasted; 23.03.2011 at 13:28.
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  #415  
Old 23.03.2011, 13:35
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

tbf, Wasted, Gaddafi is utterly ruthless, like Saddam and Assad Senior, no one really knows if they're supported or if the people are merely terrified of opposing him.
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Old 23.03.2011, 13:39
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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you are out of your depth on politics and history, if not even simple comprehension of arguments.

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Old 23.03.2011, 13:50
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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tbf, Wasted, Gaddafi is utterly ruthless, like Saddam and Assad Senior, no one really knows if they're supported or if the people are merely terrified of opposing him.
Ruthless he very well could be, I am not saying that, but just that right or wrong, whether you like it or not, he is the Leader fo the country.

Where in the world Politics is honest? Stalin was ruthless to but that did'nt stop Roosevelt(?) and Churchill to divide up Europe among them?

Same people how said there were WMDs in Iraq are saying Gaddafi is not a popular leader in his country would definitely cast some shadow.

Interesting read.
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  #418  
Old 23.03.2011, 13:54
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

First you wrote

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What you guys are not realising is that, Gaddafi is still supported by majority of the Libyan population, whether rightfully or wrong. Rebels is a small band.
Now you write
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I said, only the results of a free elections can be the credible source as to who has majority in Libya or any country. So anything said for or against would be biased and presumptuous

So you agree you are biased and presumptuous based on using your own rules & definition?
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  #419  
Old 23.03.2011, 13:57
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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Ruthless he very well could be, I am not saying that, but just that right or wrong, whether you like it or not, he is the Leader fo the country.

Where in the world Politics is honest? Stalin was ruthless to but that did'nt stop Roosevelt(?) and Churchill to divide up Europe among them?

Same people how said there were WMDs in Iraq are saying Gaddafi is not a popular leader in his country would definitely cast some shadow.

Interesting read.
Gaddafi isn't a "popular" leader in his country although he has of course support amongst his tribe.
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  #420  
Old 23.03.2011, 14:00
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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Gaddafi isn't a "popular" leader in his country although he has of course support amongst his tribe.
Ok hes not a "popular" leader but one who has a lot of political clout in the country?
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