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  #421  
Old 23.03.2011, 15:04
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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Ok hes not a "popular" leader but one who has a lot of political clout in the country?
yes, I agree, sorry I didn't mean to get into a discussion about semantics. Gaddafi is definitely a strong, clever, ruthless leader with support in his country but I am all for getting rid of him. I am also in favour of kicking out the Khalifa scum who have been slaughtering Bahrainis with foreign troops. The Khalifas have no shame. If it means me having to pay more for petrol and electricity then so be it, I fully support people uprising for democracy in the middle east
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  #422  
Old 23.03.2011, 16:14
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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First you wrote



Now you write



So you agree you are biased and presumptuous based on using your own rules & definition?
Yes I do, and so will be any Source that claims to know the political divisions and alliances in Libya.

Hence I could not and did not provide any source, but my reasons for being biased and presumptuous so.

Sorry, I have a day job too and hence I sometimes do not add the relevant disclaimers and conditions before posting something, in haste often.
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  #423  
Old 23.03.2011, 17:15
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

Does anyone have any figures on the casualty numbers ?

Both Gaddafi and the Rebels have been less than vegetarians, and I assume all those cruise missiles claimed lives - but there are no numbers to be seen of how many were killed, injured etc.
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  #424  
Old 23.03.2011, 17:17
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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Does anyone have any figures on the casualty numbers ?

Both Gaddafi and the Rebels have been less than vegetarians, and I assume all those cruise missiles claimed lives - but there are no numbers to be seen of how many were killed, injured etc.
I think we'll never ever really know the numbers
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  #425  
Old 23.03.2011, 17:47
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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I think we'll never ever really know the numbers
Remember that next time you hear about casualties in other middle eastern wars.
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  #426  
Old 23.03.2011, 17:51
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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Remember that next time you hear about casualties in other middle eastern wars.
sorry, what do you mean?
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  #427  
Old 23.03.2011, 17:59
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

I mean that Casualty numbers are political - Its very clean to anyone who watched/read the news that both the Rebels and Gaddafi targeted and killed civilians. The Allies fired cruise missiles which likely causes civilian casualties as well.

The reason they are not shown is because they will harm the political cause. Gaddafi's figures are not broadcast in the west for the same reason - plus he is less reliable even then the usual Arab leader.
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  #428  
Old 23.03.2011, 18:02
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

good points, but I'm still not sure what you're getting at. maybe I'm just being thick
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  #429  
Old 23.03.2011, 18:03
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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I mean that Casualty numbers are political - Its very clean to anyone who watched/read the news that both the Rebels and Gaddafi targeted and killed civilians. The Allies fired cruise missiles which likely causes civilian casualties as well.

The reason they are not shown is because they will harm the political cause. Gaddafi's figures are not broadcast in the west for the same reason - plus he is less reliable even then the usual Arab leader.
You mean not as many civilians were killed in the Israeli air strikes in Gaza as reported?

Re Gaddafi and Arab leaders being less reliable: I guess you have had some dealings with them and they did nto pay you in time or renegated the contracts? I mean you cannot believe what gets reported, right?
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  #430  
Old 23.03.2011, 18:11
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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You mean not as many civilians were killed in the Israeli air strikes in Gaza?
Very good point.

In the 2008-9 Gaza war Hamas quoted highly inflated numbers of civilians killed - the numbers started at 900, after checking the numbers are around 400-500. very low when considering that almost all fighting was in a densly populated area which Hamas used as human shields.

Gaddafi is using human shields as well, while directly shooting at civilians is something he never shied from before- the civilian casualties will be a lot higher than Gaza. From what I've seen of the rebels they will not win any awards for keeping to the Geneva convention either.

Arab leaders reliability: their use of lies is well documented.
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  #431  
Old 23.03.2011, 18:13
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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Very good point.

In the 2008-9 Gaza war Hamas quoted highly inflated numbers of civilians killed - the numbers started at 900, after checking the numbers are around 400-500. very low when considering that almost all fighting was in a densly populated area which Hamas used as human shields.

Gaddafi is using human shields as well, while directly shooting at civilians is something he never shied from before- the civilian casualties will be a lot higher than Gaza. From what I've seen of the rebels they will not win any awards for keeping to the Geneva convention either.
I think you'll find in most wars and natural disasters ( see Japan EQ) there is difficulty in assessing the numbers of human deaths
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  #432  
Old 23.03.2011, 18:14
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

"Arab leaders reliability: their use of lies is well documented."

True, that's why many arab peoples are rebelling.
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  #433  
Old 23.03.2011, 18:19
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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Arab leaders reliability: their use of lies is well documented.
Which Arab leaders you mean? The one's who are Allies and bend over backwards to their Western masters, the one's people are rebelling against?

You are 100% right. I think the common Jews and Arabs are just being abused, lied to and being taken for granted. How about Jews and Arabs form an Alliance against their Opressors?
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  #434  
Old 23.03.2011, 18:27
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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Which Arab leaders you mean? The one's who are Allies and bend over backwards to their Western masters, the one's people are rebelling against?

You are 100% right. I think the common Jews and Arabs are just being abused, lied to and being taken for granted. How about Jews and Arabs form an Alliance against their Opressors?
People are rebelling against Assad Jr. - hardly a western ally.

Luckily for the Jews - they live in a democracy (Almost all the jews who lived in Arab countries had to flee long ago). Unfortunately I don't see any Arabs who would welcome the Jews on their side, antisemitism in the Arab world being what it is.
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  #435  
Old 23.03.2011, 18:35
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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People are rebelling against Assad Jr. - hardly a western ally.

Luckily for the Jews - they live in a democracy (Almost all the jews who lived in Arab countries had to flee long ago). Unfortunately I don't see any Arabs who would welcome the Jews on their side, antisemitism in the Arab world being what it is.
Oh ok, so you were only referring to Assad Jr. Now it makes sense.

Long time ago, you mean when it was under Arab and subsequently Turk rule when they had to flee Mid East to Europe, turned blonde and blue eyed and came back to claim the Promised land of Israel centuries later?

Im sure Arab and Jews can improve their relations and learn to live together, like before, and share some homus and olive oil, after that thats what the idea of Promised Land is where the sheep and the wolf can share same stream of water in peace? Or is it no access to Gentiles?
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  #436  
Old 23.03.2011, 18:45
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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Oh ok, so you were only referring to Assad Jr. Now it makes sense.

Long time ago, you mean when it was under Arab and subsequently Turk rule when they had to flee Mid East to Europe, turned blonde and blue eyed and came back to claim the Promised land of Israel centuries later?

Im sure Arab and Jews can improve their relations and learn to live together, like before, and share some homus and olive oil, after that thats what the idea of Promised Land is where the sheep and the wolf can share same stream of water in peace? Or is it no access to Gentiles?
I mean the Jews that lived in the middle east a long time before the Arabs occupied it had to flee. no UN intervention for them.

Jews and Arabs live quite well together in Israel - In fact, Israeli Arabs dread the day the border moves and they can live under Arab rule.
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  #437  
Old 23.03.2011, 18:51
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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I mean the Jews that lived in the middle east a long time before the Arabs occupied it had to flee. no UN intervention for them.

Jews and Arabs live quite well together in Israel - In fact, Israeli Arabs dread the day the border moves and they can live under Arab rule.

loads of statements with very little hard evidence here, to be honest I can't be bothered to argue them right now as I my attention is fixed by what's happening in Libya.
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  #438  
Old 23.03.2011, 18:53
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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I mean the Jews that lived in the middle east a long time before the Arabs occupied it had to flee. no UN intervention for them.

Jews and Arabs live quite well together in Israel - In fact, Arabs dread the day the border moves and they can live under Arab rule.
Jews that lived in the Middle east long time before the Arabs?

How do you become an Arab or a Jew? Did these Arabs came from elsewhere into the Middle East when it was occupied by Jew Nationals/Race?

Jesus was also a Jew, no? Or was he Arab? Im so confused here.

That article from NY Times is truly an eye opener, I hope they report the number of civilian casualties in Gaza by the Israeli strikes right!

I think there is a serious propaganda going on against Israel and Jews, one documentary I was watching on BBC or Channel 4 news, not sure, which showed how Arabs were spat on in Israel and little Arab girls being harased by Israeli soldiers on their way to school and their head scarfs being pulled. I mean their can be isolated one of incidents of few bad apples, but this negative portrayal is seriously unfair.

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loads of statements with very little hard evidence here, to be honest I can't be bothered to argue them right now as I my attention is fixed by what's happening in Libya.
Hard evidence is not always needed to make a point
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  #439  
Old 23.03.2011, 21:48
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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Jews that lived in the Middle east long time before the Arabs?

How do you become an Arab or a Jew? Did these Arabs came from elsewhere into the Middle East when it was occupied by Jew Nationals/Race?

Jesus was also a Jew, no? Or was he Arab? Im so confused here.

That article from NY Times is truly an eye opener, I hope they report the number of civilian casualties in Gaza by the Israeli strikes right!

I think there is a serious propaganda going on against Israel and Jews, one documentary I was watching on BBC or Channel 4 news, not sure, which showed how Arabs were spat on in Israel and little Arab girls being harased by Israeli soldiers on their way to school and their head scarfs being pulled. I mean their can be isolated one of incidents of few bad apples, but this negative portrayal is seriously unfair.



Hard evidence is not always needed to make a point
Arab, as the name suggests - came from Arabia. Under Muhammad and his succesors the conquered most of the middle east. Jews and Christians lived in the ME long before that.

As for other facts and figures - feel free to do your own research and challenge mine. otherwise you'll derail the thread to conspiracy "theories" - and you know who takes them seriously.
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  #440  
Old 24.03.2011, 00:21
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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Does anyone have any figures on the casualty numbers ?

Both Gaddafi and the Rebels have been less than vegetarians, and I assume all those cruise missiles claimed lives - but there are no numbers to be seen of how many were killed, injured etc.
Look at previous wars on this planet ! Have their ever been correct news about "claimed lives" ? Have their ever been open admittances about personal losses by ANY army ??? Why then should those chaps in Libya be different
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