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  #441  
Old 23.03.2011, 23:26
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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Very good point.

In the 2008-9 Gaza war Hamas quoted highly inflated numbers of civilians killed - the numbers started at 900, after checking the numbers are around 400-500. very low when considering that almost all fighting was in a densly populated area which Hamas used as human shields.

Gaddafi is using human shields as well, while directly shooting at civilians is something he never shied from before- the civilian casualties will be a lot higher than Gaza. From what I've seen of the rebels they will not win any awards for keeping to the Geneva convention either.

Arab leaders reliability: their use of lies is well documented.
Hamas and the IDF proved in the end to be the same sort of crooks
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  #442  
Old 23.03.2011, 23:46
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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I mean that Casualty numbers are political - Its very clean to anyone who watched/read the news that both the Rebels and Gaddafi targeted and killed civilians. The Allies fired cruise missiles which likely causes civilian casualties as well.

The reason they are not shown is because they will harm the political cause. Gaddafi's figures are not broadcast in the west for the same reason - plus he is less reliable even then the usual Arab leader.
And ??? do you want to tell me that the Casulties numbers elsewhere are not political ?? Ever heard of General William Tecumsee Sherman, who declared "the war has to be a total war and HAS to include the civilians as they in practice support the local military leadership. I in this Total War will destroy farms, villages, towns and cities, completely and to the ground" and he stated this in the early 1860ies, before he took over command of the Eastern Atlantic Front. You may go to Atlanta and study the fate of Atlanta in those times and learn about those matters.
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  #443  
Old 23.03.2011, 23:56
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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"Arab leaders reliability: their use of lies is well documented."

True, that's why many arab peoples are rebelling.
No, it is NOT. As such lies of other leaders are at least as notorious. What however matters in the Arab World is that leaders since the 1950ies are talking about freedom and the will of the people and freedom etc, but keeping an iron rule. In fact, some of those leaders have been really successful in moving their countries forward in regard to economy, healthcare, education and infrastructure (example--- Hosni Mubarak) but totally and absolutely failed in allowing more participation of the people in the political process. Exactly BinAli, Mubarak and Ali Abdullah Saleh in their reign developed the kind of "civil society" which in the end was/is able to demand the implementation of a "politically democratic civil society". The problem in Libya to some extent is that Libya, even more than the urban centres of Yemen, remained a tribal land.
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  #444  
Old 24.03.2011, 00:01
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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People are rebelling against Assad Jr. - hardly a western ally.

Luckily for the Jews - they live in a democracy (Almost all the jews who lived in Arab countries had to flee long ago). Unfortunately I don't see any Arabs who would welcome the Jews on their side, antisemitism in the Arab world being what it is.
A) Dr Assad, who for years had his practice in Bond Street London, IS a Western ally.
B) Democracy in Israel and Palestine is limited to mainland Israel
C) the term "Antisemitism" was coined in Europe where only Jews (Ashkenazi) were in evidence but neither Arabs nor Sephardi, and so is total and absolute and complete rubbish if you talk about the Arab World !! You know what I mean most precisely well indeed !!!!!
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  #445  
Old 24.03.2011, 00:08
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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Arab, as the name suggests - came from Arabia. Under Muhammad and his succesors the conquered most of the middle east. Jews and Christians lived in the ME long before that.

As for other facts and figures - feel free to do your own research and challenge mine. otherwise you'll derail the thread to conspiracy "theories" - and you know who takes them seriously.
You know precisely well that the name may suggest it but that most Arabs (some 90%) NEVER CAME from Arabia. Even, as studies show, people in Egypt are mostly of Maghreb origin. And few people in the Green Crescent originate from Arabia, rather the other way round. What DID originate from Arabia was the language and the dominating religion,. but nothing else. The Arab culture originated from Baghdad, Damascus and Cairo but NOT from Arabia. So that I might encourage you to abstain from strange "theories" and from derailing discussions into weird channels.
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  #446  
Old 24.03.2011, 09:37
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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No, it is NOT. As such lies of other leaders are at least as notorious. What however matters in the Arab World is that leaders since the 1950ies are talking about freedom and the will of the people and freedom etc, but keeping an iron rule. In fact, some of those leaders have been really successful in moving their countries forward in regard to economy, healthcare, education and infrastructure (example--- Hosni Mubarak) but totally and absolutely failed in allowing more participation of the people in the political process. Exactly BinAli, Mubarak and Ali Abdullah Saleh in their reign developed the kind of "civil society" which in the end was/is able to demand the implementation of a "politically democratic civil society". The problem in Libya to some extent is that Libya, even more than the urban centres of Yemen, remained a tribal land.
You are joking, right?
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  #447  
Old 24.03.2011, 10:32
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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No, it is NOT. As such lies of other leaders are at least as notorious. What however matters in the Arab World is that leaders since the 1950ies are talking about freedom and the will of the people and freedom etc, but keeping an iron rule. In fact, some of those leaders have been really successful in moving their countries forward in regard to economy, healthcare, education and infrastructure (example--- Hosni Mubarak) but totally and absolutely failed in allowing more participation of the people in the political process. Exactly BinAli, Mubarak and Ali Abdullah Saleh in their reign developed the kind of "civil society" which in the end was/is able to demand the implementation of a "politically democratic civil society". The problem in Libya to some extent is that Libya, even more than the urban centres of Yemen, remained a tribal land.
My personal impression is that the leaders of these lands do not look at their population as people with views, desires & feelings who deserve rights, democracy & free will. They look at them more like a farmer views his animals; just provide the minimum necessary to keep them producing & out of mischief.

Last edited by marton; 24.03.2011 at 10:33. Reason: spelling
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  #448  
Old 24.03.2011, 11:10
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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You know precisely well that the name may suggest it but that most Arabs (some 90%) NEVER CAME from Arabia. Even, as studies show, people in Egypt are mostly of Maghreb origin. And few people in the Green Crescent originate from Arabia, rather the other way round. What DID originate from Arabia was the language and the dominating religion,. but nothing else. The Arab culture originated from Baghdad, Damascus and Cairo but NOT from Arabia. So that I might encourage you to abstain from strange "theories" and from derailing discussions into weird channels.
How cunning of the Arabs to be named after a place from which they did not come from.

The arabs imposed on the conquered population their religion, culture & language - that's why the people of north Africa speak Arabic, for example.

Perhaps you are right - you need to contact the "Arab league" to change it's name to "Not really arab" league.
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  #449  
Old 24.03.2011, 12:20
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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How cunning of the Arabs to be named after a place from which they did not come from.

The arabs imposed on the conquered population their religion, culture & language - that's why the people of north Africa speak Arabic, for example.

Perhaps you are right - you need to contact the "Arab league" to change it's name to "Not really arab" league.
& they forced us to take their number system
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  #450  
Old 24.03.2011, 12:23
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

Interesting read on Political Divisions in Libya.
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  #451  
Old 24.03.2011, 13:41
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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& they forced us to take their number system
Worse - they sold an Indian method as their own. MCMXIV curses on their heads.
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  #452  
Old 24.03.2011, 14:15
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

Your title would have been a better heading for this article.
The article title is "Who are the rebels we are fighting to protect?" whereas we/they are fighting to protect the civilians, I thought?

Where civilians start/stop versus being in the military is of course a moot point.

Luckily Gadaffi has made it easy for the coalition by declaring all Libyan citizens are armed and notionally part of the People's Armed Forces which makes everybody a legitimate target. Also has the convenient side effect that rebels could be shot as "deserters" I suppose
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  #453  
Old 24.03.2011, 14:57
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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Your title would have been a better heading for this article.
The article title is "Who are the rebels we are fighting to protect?" whereas we/they are fighting to protect the civilians, I thought?

Where civilians start/stop versus being in the military is of course a moot point.

Luckily Gadaffi has made it easy for the coalition by declaring all Libyan citizens are armed and notionally part of the People's Armed Forces which makes everybody a legitimate target. Also has the convenient side effect that rebels could be shot as "deserters" I suppose
Dont think, just say "Yes" - The sanity of our civilisation depends on it!

That could also mean there are no civilians to protect? (You said all Libyan citizens, which would also include the rebels and their supporters - Before you get any smart ideas )

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How cunning of the Arabs to be named after a place from which they did not come from.

The arabs imposed on the conquered population their religion, culture & language - that's why the people of north Africa speak Arabic, for example.

Perhaps you are right - you need to contact the "Arab league" to change it's name to "Not really arab" league.
Not intending to indulge in this OT and stupid discussion for long - but despite your opinions and views - the main point you are missing is Arab is a Nationality/Race, whereas Jew is a Religion. You can have an Arab who could be Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist etc. BUT You cannot have a Jew who is also a Hindu or Muslim etc?!

Similarly, you can have a Jew who is Russian, Polish, Arab, Kenyan, Ethiopian etc.

According to Exodus, Israelites (now thats a race not Religion) came to Arabian peninsula from Egypt (Africa), escaping the tyranny of Pharaoh.

I can imagine you are being fed porkie pies to somehow make a claim on whole of Middle East, and then probably the world from thereon, and only then maybe you can change the history books as it suits you, but for now leave history as it is.
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  #454  
Old 24.03.2011, 15:26
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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Not intending to indulge in this OT and stupid discussion for long - but despite your opinions and views - the main point you are missing is Arab is a Nationality/Race, whereas Jew is a Religion. You can have an Arab who could be Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist etc. BUT You cannot have a Jew who is also a Hindu or Muslim etc?!

Similarly, you can have a Jew who is Russian, Polish, Arab, Kenyan, Ethiopian etc.

According to Exodus, Israelites (now thats a race not Religion) came to Arabian peninsula from Egypt (Africa), escaping the tyranny of Pharaoh.

I can imagine you are being fed porkie pies to somehow make a claim on whole of Middle East, and then probably the world from thereon, and only then maybe you can change the history books as it suits you, but for now leave history as it is.
Your imagination is something not usually experienced sober. like others on this forum you claim that I don't post facts. like others you fail to prove it.

btw - Exodus talks about the the Israelites returning to Israel, not the arabian peninsula. not paying church tax, are you ?
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  #455  
Old 24.03.2011, 15:57
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

[QUOTE=Wasted;1146874]Dont think, just say "Yes" - The sanity of our civilisation depends on it!

That could also mean there are no civilians to protect? (You said all Libyan citizens, which would also include the rebels and their supporters - Before you get any smart ideas )
[QUOTE]


Indeed Gadaffi said "all Libyan citizens" & as you write "would also include the rebels and their supporters".

Conclusion is "there are no civilians to protect"

correct!
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  #456  
Old 24.03.2011, 16:42
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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Your imagination is something not usually experienced sober. like others on this forum you claim that I don't post facts. like others you fail to prove it.

btw - Exodus talks about the the Israelites returning to Israel, not the arabian peninsula. not paying church tax, are you ?
How can you prove someone is NOT posting facts. You said Jew is a Race not a Religion, whats the evidence of that?

Jesus was born in Jew family, so hes a Jew. Does that mean Christains are also of Semitic race?

What happens if a Jew realises the errors of his ways and beliefs and converts to Islam, does it make him Arab?

Did Israel existed in the days of Exodus? Or was it called Israel when the Jews, lead by Moses made that region their Home?

Arabian Peninsula could include Saudia Arabia, Yemen etc in South and Jordan, Syria, Palestine, Israel in the North, but yes it can be debatable.

BTW.. why do you selectively respond to my posts, only where you see some reason to doubt? Which baasically means you are not ignorant or stupid by birth, but only choose to be one.

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Indeed Gadaffi said "all Libyan citizens" & as you write "would also include the rebels and their supporters".

Conclusion is "there are no civilians to protect"

correct!
Unless, as Gaddafi claims, its the Foreigners and Al Qaeda who are causing all the trouble. Also the ones who are drugged, as the Law would state any undertaking or Contract with an incapacitated person is null and void, unless he/she is driving
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  #457  
Old 24.03.2011, 17:04
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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How can you prove someone is NOT posting facts. You said Jew is a Race not a Religion, whats the evidence of that?
I never said that. which makes this

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Jesus was born in Jew family, so hes a Jew. Does that mean Christains are also of Semitic race?
false.

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What happens if a Jew realises the errors of his ways and beliefs and converts to Islam, does it make him Arab?
Plenty of Jews used to be Arabs. until their Muslim neighbours decided to change that.

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Did Israel existed in the days of Exodus? Or was it called Israel when the Jews, lead by Moses made that region their Home?
It was called "The land of Israel" , that's where the Jewish nation formed (before the exile in Egypt).

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Arabian Peninsula could include Saudia Arabia, Yemen etc in South and Jordan, Syria, Palestine, Israel in the North, but yes it can be debatable.
And Europe can be considered a small Asian cape. and maybe one day it will. In the mean time we have to stick with common ME definitions (valid since Roman times, at least).

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BTW.. why do you selectively respond to my posts, only where you see some reason to doubt? Which baasically means you are not ignorant or stupid by birth, but only choose to be one.
I didn't know I had to reply to each and every false claim on this forum. and so many of your claims are false...
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  #458  
Old 24.03.2011, 17:25
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

Pashosh@ I was not making any claims with you, only enquiring, if you fail to notice the questions marks.

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In 2010, it has been claimed that Gaddafi has Jewish origin. Two Israeli women of Libyan origin stated that they are distant relatives of Gaddafi, and their grandmother was a Jewish woman who converted to Islam and married Gaddafi's Grandfather, a Muslim Sheikh.[10]
Source

This explains a lot of things
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  #459  
Old 24.03.2011, 18:06
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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Pashosh@ I was not making any claims with you, only enquiring, if you fail to notice the questions marks.
No, you lied. You claimed I said things I never did.
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Old 24.03.2011, 18:13
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Re: Libya - 17 Feb "Day of wrath"

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No, you lied. You claimed I said things I never did.
True.

Thats because you only imply a lot of things without saying them
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