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  #101  
Old 18.02.2011, 18:17
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It's true that "peremptory norms" form the basis for "human rights" in intl law, which is essentially just a consensus amongst old, mostly white men, but it's also true that these "laws" are not only intuitive but very well thought out and analyzed and stuff by lots of smart people over thousands of years. Have some faith in humanity. You guys are all right but the monkey is righter.

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  #102  
Old 18.02.2011, 18:26
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Re: UK sex offenders can now apply to be removed from the Register.

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not only intuitive
Intuitive to all the people to whom they're intuitive. Not to Saddam Hussein though, right?

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smart people over thousands of years.
I thought human rights happened in 1948? Thousands of years ago they used to stone people for working on Saturdays or wearing cotton-linen mix.

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Have some faith in humanity.
Nah.

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Calm down, wait till you get home and think about this properly.
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  #103  
Old 18.02.2011, 18:51
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Intuitive to smart people. Silly. Thought that was obvious. And before you try affirm the consequent, that does not entail smart people necessarily following the law.

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  #104  
Old 18.02.2011, 19:01
economisto
 
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Re: UK sex offenders can now apply to be removed from the Register.

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Intuitive to smart people. Silly. Thought that was obvious. And before you try affirm the consequent, that does not entail smart people necessarily following the law.

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Your logic makes angels cry. So good people are smart people eh. Here, have a cookie.
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  #105  
Old 18.02.2011, 19:05
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Your logic makes angels cry. So good people are smart people eh. Here, have a cookie.
I called it! Thanks.

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  #106  
Old 18.02.2011, 19:13
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Re: UK sex offenders can now apply to be removed from the Register.

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OT: but this is pretty darn annoying.
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  #107  
Old 18.02.2011, 19:15
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Re: UK sex offenders can now apply to be removed from the Register.

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OT: but this is pretty darn annoying.
I can sell you a phone that works...
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  #108  
Old 18.02.2011, 19:19
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Re: UK sex offenders can now apply to be removed from the Register.

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I can sell you a phone that works...
To fund your spiraling losses? Will the iPad go next?
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  #109  
Old 18.02.2011, 19:35
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OT: but this is pretty darn annoying.
It annoys me too. But it makes it easier to make one word posts, and it's a typo fisclaimer. And it's on by default.

But on topic, I can't believe that some people here are arguing against human rights! And that some people think they were invented in 1948! It's a discretionary mechanism anyway. Only a fool could be absolutely against it. At least in the us there is a high percentage of wrongful convictions. That's just one reason why there should be some post facto procedural safeguard in place, and there are many more ignored here.
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  #110  
Old 18.02.2011, 19:46
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Re: UK sex offenders can now apply to be removed from the Register.

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I can't believe that some people here are arguing against human rights!

I can't believe it either! It just doesn't conform to any of the posts that I've carefully read!

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  #111  
Old 18.02.2011, 20:41
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Re: UK sex offenders can now apply to be removed from the Register.

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Very emmotive, but you concentrate on a very, very small minority of criminals. The murderer you describe is the unhinged sort, the psychopath.

Most crimes aren't commited by this sort of criminal, most murders are domestic, crimes of passion, between people who know each other. The perpetrators aren't the monsters you describe, waiting to kill again.

Maybe concentrating on the monsters makes us think less about the day to day horrors.
but that's exactly my point, child molesters are unhinged. They are extremely dangerous to society.

If a person is falsely accused then that is the fault of the trail, not the register. The judicial systems of most country are now far more adept at collecting statements, hearing witnesses testify etc. Most people who work with children know that they could be falsely accused, which is why they are very careful in their contact. Of course there are accusations, but these are usually handled professionally. Personally I don't know of any that have been found guilty who were innocent.


Paedophiles (by the way they don't just molest) are usually put in special sections to protect them. Even then, other prisoners do sometimes manage to get to them, so they should be afforded more protection. But the inefficiencies in the judicial system, cannot be blamed on the register. I want to know people to know where the paedophiles are- that they are not hanging around playgrounds or schools or running after school activities, or community events. If people have such a concern for the false imprisonment of the innocent, then perhaps they should spend more time fighting for the rights of the underprivileged.


There are organizations run by paedophiles. Some are to help members resist temptation. many of them want the public to know who they are and what they did. They admit that they may well rescind, so they feel safer in societies where the public is informed. For instance they appreciate not being invited to a kids pool party.

Others fight for recognition; that their activities should be allowed to continue, reasoning that theirs is an acceptable from of sexuality. Paedophile rings involve some of the most powerful people in society and they are well-funded; they wield a lot of influence. If you don't believe it just look at the Catholic Church.

I feel sorry for those who cannot afford competent lawyers or are denied a fair trail, but do I feel sorry for a man who does not like his sexual interest in young children being curtailed by a register- Nah! They have been getting away with for years. I know many girls who have, from a young age, had sex with many men. One man I know of has gone to prison for sex with a minor, the girl he got caught with carried on and reportedly (from her)still with adult men. Do I feel sorry for those men- No. Whatever role she plays, she is underage, it's the law, you break it you go to jail and you get labeled as a sexual offender.

Kids seldom lie about paedophiles. Teenagers now know that false accusation will be thoroughly investigated, so making them can backfire. the teenagers themselves will face legal consequences. Most children try to hide sexual crimes and protect the perpetrator.

Isn't sectioning a mentally ill patient denying their human rights, why not discuss that?
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  #112  
Old 18.02.2011, 23:03
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Re: UK sex offenders can now apply to be removed from the Register.

Perhaps the death penalty should be introduced for people who repeatedly flout the highway code. Such people cause a huge number of deaths and injuries and fines and driving license endorsements appear to have no deterrent effect.

The untimely death of the breadwinner of a family after being run over on a zebra crossing by a driver who was not watching the road can have a profound effect on the lives of those left behind.

A register of habitual bad drivers and speeders would also allow parents to know whether or not they are moving into a neighbourhood which is safe for their children to play in.

Cheers,
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Or a motorway speeder?
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  #113  
Old 18.02.2011, 23:46
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Re: UK sex offenders can now apply to be removed from the Register.

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Perhaps the death penalty should be introduced for people who repeatedly flout the highway code. Such people cause a huge number of deaths and injuries and fines and driving license endorsements appear to have no deterrent effect.

The untimely death of the breadwinner of a family after being run over on a zebra crossing by a driver who was not watching the road can have a profound effect on the lives of those left behind.

A register of habitual bad drivers and speeders would also allow parents to know whether or not they are moving into a neighbourhood which is safe for their children to play in.

Cheers,
Nick
If a person is driving around aiming at and injuring children then he will go to prison, perhaps for life.
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  #114  
Old 21.02.2011, 18:38
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Re: UK sex offenders can now apply to be removed from the Register.

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but that's exactly my point, child molesters are unhinged. They are extremely dangerous to society.
An you go on to entirely miss the point, by again, picking the most emotive subject of a set of criminality, paedophiles, the register is not just for paedophiles.

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I feel sorry for those who cannot afford competent lawyers or are denied a fair trail, but do I feel sorry for a man who does not like his sexual interest in young children being curtailed by a register- Nah! They have been getting away with for years. I know many girls who have, from a young age, had sex with many men. One man I know of has gone to prison for sex with a minor, the girl he got caught with carried on and reportedly (from her)still with adult men. Do I feel sorry for those men- No. Whatever role she plays, she is underage, it's the law, you break it you go to jail and you get labeled as a sexual offender.
So you recognise that mistakes may be made, but don't feel the victims of these mistakes should have recourse because of the particular crime they were accused of? In your case, what if the man was 16, and the girl 15, does that guy deserve to be on a register for the rest of his life?

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Kids seldom lie about paedophiles. Teenagers now know that false accusation will be thoroughly investigated, so making them can backfire. the teenagers themselves will face legal consequences. Most children try to hide sexual crimes and protect the perpetrator.
Wot? LOL. Pretty sure every sentence there is completely wrong.

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Isn't sectioning a mentally ill patient denying their human rights, why not discuss that?
So let's have a register for the mentally ill then, is that your view? Maybe neighbours should have complete access to everyones medical records, how is this even an argument?
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  #115  
Old 21.02.2011, 18:58
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Re: UK sex offenders can now apply to be removed from the Register.

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Kids seldom lie about paedophiles. Teenagers now know that false accusation will be thoroughly investigated, so making them can backfire. the teenagers themselves will face legal consequences. Most children try to hide sexual crimes and protect the perpetrator.
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Wot? LOL. Pretty sure every sentence there is completely wrong.
I believe the first and last statements (about children - as in, pre-teens).

Children won't even think of being part of such activities with adults, unless they've already been exposed to such behaviour - in which case they've already been victims of abuse somewhere, somehow.

Children will usually try to hide sexual crimes and protect the perpetrator because they are children - and the perpetrator will (generally) tell their vicitim a whole host of lies to prevent the child speaking up. Some common ones friends of mine (who have worked in child protection) have heard are:
"Nobody will believe you.";
"Your Dad's my brother - who do you think he'll believe, me or you?";
"If you tell anyone, they'll think you're evil and disgusting.";
"Your mother will hate you if she ever finds out what you've done."; and
"You'll get into big trouble if anyone ever finds out.".
The perpetrator plays on the uncertainty, insecurity and lack of knowledge of their victim to keep them silent - making them feel guilty for what has happened, cutting them off from people who could help & protect them.

As for teenagers, though, I don't know - they're old enough that they've heard things, maybe even experimented with friends, but there is no way that your average teenager will realise the full consequences of making a false accusation of sexual assault against somebody. Clearly some teenagers will recognise what may happen, most will know that the person they accuse will get in some sort of trouble, but the majority will not know the severity of the response that will arise - and definitely have no idea that they could also suffer due to creating a false accusation.
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  #116  
Old 21.02.2011, 22:16
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As house always said, everyone lies. Children lie, and there is often no DNA evidence available to exclude defendants. It's just the kid's word. Indeed, the child's testimony is almost always the only evidence (period), because there is so seldom any physical evidence at all (it's usually a family member, extended family member, or some close family friend - or something - who it is alleged to have abused the kid, normally over long periods of time). I personally know of almost a dozen of people who have maintained their innocence long after they could have got parole. One man served 17 years of a 20 year sentence before being exonerated, when he could have got out in 8-10 years if he had admitted the crime as part of the requirement for pre-parole treatment. But they don't because they didn't do it, because the child lied. There must be a few who admit it just to get out, but they never get off the registry (and I am not positive that even the exonerated guy's name was removed - and if it was then it was by way of some ad hoc governor intervention and not by way of the very reasonable discretionary mechanism discussed in this thread).
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