Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01.03.2011, 15:20
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Karl-Theodor zu Googleberg resigns...

The German Defence Minister Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg has finally stepped down, after he was found to have copied large parts of his 2006 university doctorate thesis, been stripped of his PhD, and more than 50,000 academics signed a letter calling for his resignation.

Two weeks is a long time in politics: 17th Feb 2011 - German minister denies plagiarism on PhD thesis


Bless 'im! This one's for him


Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #2  
Old 01.03.2011, 15:30
PaddyG's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Pensier, Fribourg
Posts: 9,250
Groaned at 121 Times in 105 Posts
Thanked 16,857 Times in 5,912 Posts
PaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Karl-Theodor zu Googleberg resigns...

Finally! And how many positions had he wangled with his bogus PhD before becoming minister?
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 01.03.2011, 15:42
Angela-74's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Kanton Neuchatel
Posts: 5,738
Groaned at 106 Times in 87 Posts
Thanked 5,665 Times in 2,772 Posts
Angela-74 has a reputation beyond reputeAngela-74 has a reputation beyond reputeAngela-74 has a reputation beyond reputeAngela-74 has a reputation beyond reputeAngela-74 has a reputation beyond reputeAngela-74 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Karl-Theodor zu Googleberg resigns...

Is the original work known?
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01.03.2011, 15:45
PaddyG's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Pensier, Fribourg
Posts: 9,250
Groaned at 121 Times in 105 Posts
Thanked 16,857 Times in 5,912 Posts
PaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Karl-Theodor zu Googleberg resigns...

Quote:
View Post
Is the original work known?
Yes, it's mine. I'm just waiting for the call from Frau Merkel to take up my new position.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank PaddyG for this useful post:
  #5  
Old 01.03.2011, 16:20
Angela-74's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Kanton Neuchatel
Posts: 5,738
Groaned at 106 Times in 87 Posts
Thanked 5,665 Times in 2,772 Posts
Angela-74 has a reputation beyond reputeAngela-74 has a reputation beyond reputeAngela-74 has a reputation beyond reputeAngela-74 has a reputation beyond reputeAngela-74 has a reputation beyond reputeAngela-74 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Karl-Theodor zu Googleberg resigns...

Quote:
View Post
Yes, it's mine. I'm just waiting for the call from Frau Merkel to take up my new position.
O_o ...................
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Angela-74 for this useful post:
  #6  
Old 01.03.2011, 16:26
PaddyG's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Pensier, Fribourg
Posts: 9,250
Groaned at 121 Times in 105 Posts
Thanked 16,857 Times in 5,912 Posts
PaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Karl-Theodor zu Googleberg resigns...

Quote:
View Post
O_o ...................
Ah yes, defence minister of the All-Powerful German reich nation. I can feel the power surging through my body
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01.03.2011, 16:41
nigelr's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Aargau
Posts: 1,714
Groaned at 118 Times in 59 Posts
Thanked 2,140 Times in 942 Posts
nigelr has a reputation beyond reputenigelr has a reputation beyond reputenigelr has a reputation beyond reputenigelr has a reputation beyond reputenigelr has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Karl-Theodor zu Googleberg resigns...

What I can never understand is why politicians in these situations always start off by denying the allegations and saying what a load of nonsense it all is when they know damn well a) it is true, and b) the press enjoy it all the more and dig deeper.

Even now I believe he is still saying yes it was a copy/paste but not on purpose. Some people just don't know when to stop.

...and yes, everything on my CV is 100% accurate.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank nigelr for this useful post:
  #8  
Old 01.03.2011, 16:52
Castro's Avatar
à la mod
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Basel-Land of Smiles
Posts: 5,325
Groaned at 106 Times in 84 Posts
Thanked 15,689 Times in 5,025 Posts
Castro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Karl-Theodor zu Googleberg resigns...

Call me a bleeding heart, but I hope his friends and family have him on S-watch, because that amount of shame and humiliation could be the end of him.. literally.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank Castro for this useful post:
  #9  
Old 01.03.2011, 17:03
Treverus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Luxembourg
Posts: 11,711
Groaned at 297 Times in 254 Posts
Thanked 21,981 Times in 8,001 Posts
Treverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Karl-Theodor zu Googleberg resigns...

Quote:
View Post
Is the original work known?
Here is the trick: He was already a PM when he "wrote" the thesis. The German parliament has a "scientific service" which, on request of PMs will research and write short papers on topics for them. These papers are not published anywhere. So he used tax money to ask other people (who were not aware of what they were writing for) to give him some nicely prepared input for his "work".

Besides that did he copy some published sources and I for one cannot understand how this can remain undetected - my MBA thesis was run through software to find out any potential plagiarisms... I guess these software producers just got a great market if they approach German universities now...

But on the topic. The current German finance minister has a decade ago - when being a party leader - accepted an illegal payment of 100.000 Euros by a very shady arms dealer. It was the only instance that was proven, but there were likely far more of them as his party had an entire system of illegal bank accounts in Switzerland and Liechtenstein.
Cheating on your thesis is bad, you make an idiot of yourself and show your lack of decency and high level of vanity. But as long as a guy can become finance minister after he was found to accept bribes I think this is a lesser case. The problem was entirely different: Gutenberg was extremly successful and very likely the next chancellor candidate. He would have won the elections in a storm. So he must have a massive amount of opposition both from the political competitior as well as jealous "colleagues" who are not as popular as him. To give you an idea: Even AFTER his fraud became public, hi popularity remained higher than any other politician in Germany:
http://www.focus.de/service/statisti...id_406998.html

In short: They had to do something. The only question I wonder is who in this case "they" might be... too many candidates.

P.S: I am btw not trying to excuse him or balancing the view - finance minister Schäuble and von Gutenberg are from the same party...
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank Treverus for this useful post:
  #10  
Old 01.03.2011, 17:54
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 10,784
Groaned at 229 Times in 193 Posts
Thanked 22,459 Times in 9,538 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Karl-Theodor zu Googleberg resigns...

To some extent this shows that if you're rich (and aristocratic as well) you get a red carpet treatment rather than having to struggle to get your PhD as the rest of us do. He probably spent his university days at fraternity events rather than studying.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 01.03.2011, 18:04
Treverus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Luxembourg
Posts: 11,711
Groaned at 297 Times in 254 Posts
Thanked 21,981 Times in 8,001 Posts
Treverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Karl-Theodor zu Googleberg resigns...

Quote:
View Post
To some extent this shows that if you're rich (and aristocratic as well) you get a red carpet treatment rather than having to struggle to get your PhD as the rest of us do. He probably spent his university days at fraternity events rather than studying.
A German Wikipedia reference-linkStudentenverbindung is something fairly different to the US version. I'd rather prefer to study than to party with them...
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01.03.2011, 20:28
yjt yjt is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Aargau
Posts: 590
Groaned at 12 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 601 Times in 261 Posts
yjt has a reputation beyond reputeyjt has a reputation beyond reputeyjt has a reputation beyond reputeyjt has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Karl-Theodor zu Googleberg resigns...

To be fair if he's so popular, I'm sure he'll get a second chance.

I have to say I love to see rich spoilt brats fall on their nose but what I find very arrogant was how he tried to make himself as a victim. As pointed out rather than admit it, he denied it, then more came out, he tried to play the action down, then more came out and then he gave the title back.

What he should have done at the start was say sorry folks I messed up, give his sob story and hope he will be forgiven. In his press conference today, it was almost like he expected us to feel sorry for him.

Dude you cheated, accept the consequences and move on
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank yjt for this useful post:
  #13  
Old 01.03.2011, 20:34
Doctor's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 1,072
Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 527 Times in 323 Posts
Doctor has a reputation beyond reputeDoctor has a reputation beyond reputeDoctor has a reputation beyond reputeDoctor has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Karl-Theodor zu Googleberg resigns...

Does anybody know, whose leaving speech he copied ?

Doc.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank Doctor for this useful post:
  #14  
Old 01.03.2011, 23:33
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 19,023
Groaned at 333 Times in 258 Posts
Thanked 11,716 Times in 6,858 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Karl-Theodor zu Googleberg resigns...

Quote:
View Post
Here is the trick: He was already a PM when he "wrote" the thesis. The German parliament has a "scientific service" which, on request of PMs will research and write short papers on topics for them. These papers are not published anywhere. So he used tax money to ask other people (who were not aware of what they were writing for) to give him some nicely prepared input for his "work".

Besides that did he copy some published sources and I for one cannot understand how this can remain undetected - my MBA thesis was run through software to find out any potential plagiarisms... I guess these software producers just got a great market if they approach German universities now...

But on the topic. The current German finance minister has a decade ago - when being a party leader - accepted an illegal payment of 100.000 Euros by a very shady arms dealer. It was the only instance that was proven, but there were likely far more of them as his party had an entire system of illegal bank accounts in Switzerland and Liechtenstein.
Cheating on your thesis is bad, you make an idiot of yourself and show your lack of decency and high level of vanity. But as long as a guy can become finance minister after he was found to accept bribes I think this is a lesser case. The problem was entirely different: Gutenberg was extremly successful and very likely the next chancellor candidate. He would have won the elections in a storm. So he must have a massive amount of opposition both from the political competitior as well as jealous "colleagues" who are not as popular as him. To give you an idea: Even AFTER his fraud became public, hi popularity remained higher than any other politician in Germany:
http://www.focus.de/service/statisti...id_406998.html

In short: They had to do something. The only question I wonder is who in this case "they" might be... too many candidates.

P.S: I am btw not trying to excuse him or balancing the view - finance minister Schäuble and von Gutenberg are from the same party...
What irritates me is a technical aspect. I when doing my writing news for an aviation journal generally have to pick up the news from other sources. I of course routinely change the wording etc so that MY news sound and look differently to the source. OR, if you look into books of famous Peter Scholl-Latour (a particular one I mean) you can find 75% pages started by him writing "and already Mr Larmontov wrote" and concluding with "and this shows that already Mr Larmontov had the impression ......" .

More understandably explained, if you replace all the "Gehsteige" in a Federal German text by "Trottoirs" and all the Fahrräder into Velos, replace all the poisonous "double-S" of Germany with a normal 'ss' , and turn "active tenses" into passive ones and passive ones into active ones it no longer is a "plagiat"
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Wollishofener for this useful post:
  #15  
Old 01.03.2011, 23:39
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 19,023
Groaned at 333 Times in 258 Posts
Thanked 11,716 Times in 6,858 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Karl-Theodor zu Googleberg resigns...

Quote:
View Post
Finally! And how many positions had he wangled with his bogus PhD before becoming minister?
He is a millionaire by birth. Whether this PhD really was necessary for his political career in fact is subject to doubt, as he started his political moves BEFORE getting this doctorate.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Wollishofener for this useful post:
  #16  
Old 02.03.2011, 01:05
tomcat's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Stewdguard, Germany
Posts: 2,051
Groaned at 45 Times in 31 Posts
Thanked 929 Times in 609 Posts
tomcat has a reputation beyond reputetomcat has a reputation beyond reputetomcat has a reputation beyond reputetomcat has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Karl-Theodor zu Googleberg resigns...

Quote:
View Post
What irritates me is a technical aspect. I when doing my writing news for an aviation journal generally have to pick up the news from other sources. I of course routinely change the wording etc so that MY news sound and look differently to the source. OR, if you look into books of famous Peter Scholl-Latour (a particular one I mean) you can find 75% pages started by him writing "and already Mr Larmontov wrote" and concluding with "and this shows that already Mr Larmontov had the impression ......" .

More understandably explained, if you replace all the "Gehsteige" in a Federal German text by "Trottoirs" and all the Fahrräder into Velos, replace all the poisonous "double-S" of Germany with a normal 'ss' , and turn "active tenses" into passive ones and passive ones into active ones it no longer is a "plagiat"
Giving credit where credit is due, proper attribution, correct citing, all principles of honest academic work.

Not doing it is called stealing and cheating. I am sure there are more technical or legal terms for it as well.

Believe me, plagiarism software is rather sophisticated when it comes to suggesting similarities between the submitted work and other (published or unpublished) works.

http://turnitin.com/static/index.php
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 02.03.2011, 01:10
Treverus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Luxembourg
Posts: 11,711
Groaned at 297 Times in 254 Posts
Thanked 21,981 Times in 8,001 Posts
Treverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Karl-Theodor zu Googleberg resigns...

Quote:
View Post
What irritates me is a technical aspect. I when doing my writing news for an aviation journal generally have to pick up the news from other sources. I of course routinely change the wording etc so that MY news sound and look differently to the source. OR, if you look into books of famous Peter Scholl-Latour (a particular one I mean) you can find 75% pages started by him writing "and already Mr Larmontov wrote" and concluding with "and this shows that already Mr Larmontov had the impression ......" .
Ok, sorry if I have to say it so directly: You probably never wrote according to scientific rules?
If you write a doctorate thesis, you obviously need to quote other people. You actually need to demonstrate that you basically read anything ever published in your specific area of research. Then you combine the collected knowledge to new ideas and then use scientific methods to look weather your ideas are correct or not. So quoting other people is not only not bad, it is absolutely essential and mandatory. But you have to do it in the right way and the absolute rule number one is to never claim to have a new idea when you in fact read it somewhere else and just copy it... I hope that was a short idea of "quoting" vs "plagiarizing"...
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Treverus for this useful post:
  #18  
Old 02.03.2011, 01:44
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 3,490
Groaned at 62 Times in 42 Posts
Thanked 3,614 Times in 1,966 Posts
rainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Karl-Theodor zu Googleberg resigns...

Quote:
View Post
Finally! And how many positions had he wangled with his bogus PhD before becoming minister?
As said, one of his previous jobs was hedging the family fortune (to the tune of >300 million €, to give you an idea).
At least, we can be sure he will still be able to afford himself a warm meal now and then.

My theory why he actually pursued to get a doctoral title is that maybe he wanted to have something that he didn't actually inherit (the castle, the title, the money....).
Something of his own.
Also, it's probably not a disadvantage in his peer-group (law-makers are all lawyers and jurists nowadays, close to 100% AFAIK).

I detest the medial craze that was created around this.
From here, it looked a lot like a Nazi-era public baiting and humiliation.

Yes, I had to work for my diploma-thesis, too, and it's not funny that he cheated - but because mine was in IT and I was actually interested in the topic, it was rather fun and intense.
And I had no other job (and no kids and no family).
In the end, it's just a heap of paper that nobody takes a 2nd look at (unless you become famous - and even then, nobody is genuinely interested in the topic)
Personally, I believe that part of the outcry in the German academics scene comes from the fear that the public realizes that the "threshold of originality" in a lot of subjects that don't involve any kind of experiments isn't very high to begin with...


AFAIK, if you take an article in a foreign language and translate it, no anti-plagiarism-software will be able to detect it.
At least, he researched it all himself - the ghostwriters usually deliver spotless work with correct attributions etc.

It's a shame - he was somebody who could rally people also behind rather unpopular subjects (the long-overdue reform of the German armed forces was one of those things).
Ironically, now that his job is vacant, nobody wants it.
First, his shoes are too big for any successor, and second the department is considered to be the most difficult of all to lead. Few of his predecessors were able to leave office on their own terms - and very few shared his popularity inside and outside of the troops.
He brought a lot of glamour into German politics (which is normally dull as a dry brezel). Now, the other politicians will have to make without.
Expect hangovers and withdrawal symptoms
;-)
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 02.03.2011, 08:32
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Zug
Posts: 693
Groaned at 25 Times in 21 Posts
Thanked 781 Times in 358 Posts
xkcd has a reputation beyond reputexkcd has a reputation beyond reputexkcd has a reputation beyond reputexkcd has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Karl-Theodor zu Googleberg resigns...

Quote:
View Post
Ironically, now that his job is vacant, nobody wants it.
First, his shoes are too big for any successor, and second the department is considered to be the most difficult of all to lead. Few of his predecessors were able to leave office on their own terms - and very few shared his popularity inside and outside of the troops.
He brought a lot of glamour into German politics (which is normally dull as a dry brezel). Now, the other politicians will have to make without.
Expect hangovers and withdrawal symptoms
;-)
In which case Angie might want to offer the job to Mr.Berlusconi:
  • great TV personality
  • not just a mere millionaire, but a billionaire
  • not only one decent-looking wife but dozens of them (well, kind of)
  • works best under duress
  • available on the job market sooner rather than later
But wait, all of this applies to Mr.Gaddafi as well. Hmmm....
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank xkcd for this useful post:
  #20  
Old 02.03.2011, 09:40
PaddyG's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Pensier, Fribourg
Posts: 9,250
Groaned at 121 Times in 105 Posts
Thanked 16,857 Times in 5,912 Posts
PaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Karl-Theodor zu Googleberg resigns...

Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank PaddyG for this useful post:
Reply

Tags
cheating, lying, politician, sh1t, typical




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Egypt "Jan 25 - Day of revolution" [Update: Mubarak resigns] MrVertigo International affairs/politics 1580 26.12.2018 19:46
Merz resigns from Federal Government MrVertigo Swiss politics/news 7 06.08.2010 22:40
Thank you Karl and cast for such a great evening! darrylmitchell Social events 7 17.02.2010 15:05
Fidel Castro resigns as Cuban President Natasha International affairs/politics 35 30.06.2009 13:44


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 00:09.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0