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  #61  
Old 04.03.2011, 15:21
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Re: Calling for a fuel boycott

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I don't see what's so obsure about it:
POWER is the total enery used
ELECTRICITY is a mean of using this power, not all of it. The petrol you pour in your tank is a power source but it's not electricity!

Nuclear plants provide electricity (15% of the world consumption maybe) that represents less than 5% of the total power used
I think we're actually arguing cross purposes here, I think the original intention was to demonstrate the relative output of nuclear power stations compared with fossil-fuel power stations.
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Old 04.03.2011, 15:25
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Re: Calling for a fuel boycott

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except its less fuel efficient then a 5 series bmw diesel and only marginally better the a Jeep diesel, and waaaaaaaaay less the a vw polo eco diesel thing.
got numbers to back that up? because i do. prius beats all the others hands down for city efficiency, and still wins on the highway, where the benefit from hybrid is much less.


prius: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bestworst.shtml

3 series diesel (couldn't find a 5, but a 3 is smaller and lighter): http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2008c...f.jsp?id=29851

vw golf: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2008c...f.jsp?id=29406

vw jetta: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2008c...f.jsp?id=29409
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  #63  
Old 04.03.2011, 15:25
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Re: Calling for a fuel boycott

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I'd also question if the oil companies are the right ones to target our anger at. The SVP claim 50% of the fuel price goes to the state. http://www.svp.ch/g3.cms/s_page/8305...933878229149FA

Also this hugh price increase seems to be because of stock brokers needlessly increasing the price and arrogant dictators in the middle east refusing to give way to the people's will. I'm not saying oil companies are innocent but from what I've read they don't seem to be at fault for this unless they are to be expected to sell oil below market value
Stock Brokers Needlessly increasing the price? Brokers trade stocks, not commodities. Well maybe they do, but it's a different market.

But the commodities markets are invested in by people. Not a group of 10 guys out there in a room. I think most people lose money in commodities trading as well, it's too easy to look at some X group and put the blame on them.
Arrogant dictators eh? many of whom were put in power by colonial governments such as the UK and France. I didn't see people back then in europe taking to the streets in reaction to that, it's odd how anyone can now take the side we are vicitims to a gas increase when people of europe stood beside and allowed people in arabic countries to have their rights abused to allow for a stable system of energy pricing. It is what it is.

Oil companies, atleast in the US, DO take subsidies. Billions and billions of dollars in subsidies like a farmer who doesn't grow corn, or does for that matter.

What's market value? Is market value what one pays per liter in Venezaula or Iran the same as market value for some one in the USA? Or isn't cost affected by what the Saudi's charge, and the dividend they pay back into every citizen in their kingdom?

As far as this attempt to change big oil to lower their prices, I really do not see why. They should be able to charge whatever they want for their product. Gas is already not expensive in most lesser developed countries, and more, say here. I think the true problem lies within the individual, not a company trying to sell a product.

It's your own personal decision to move to a rural area to not pay as many taxes, or you like the scenary, or the rent is cheaper, or get stuck for hours in rush hour traffic-when you could easily walk the 8 city blocks and take public transportation, or it's closer to your beer bonging buddy from high school, and to drive into work from farther away.

It's your own personal decision to take trips all over the planet, or drive across the continent instead of doing things closer to home because you want to see everything.

It's your own personal decision to drink copios amounts of bottled water(either by plastic that is made from petroleum, or in glass bottles that weigh down trucks and cost more gas to transport), instead of opening your local tap.

It's your own personal decision to buy that bigger car, because, hey I earned it!

It's your own personal decision to buy everything from China, because it's cheaper.

It's your personal decision to eat beef, which does so much damage I wouldn't even know where to begin. Including tetrapaks for milk.

All these things consume gas. They should put amount of oil consumption on the list ingredients on food products. And I know this is an archaic thing to say, but I do believe about a 100 plus years ago the world got along fine without crazy amounts of oil, and I think you can too.

I like technology, well sort of, and I like the conveniences of having a car, and everything else that burns oil. But oil doesn't get burnt by the companies selling the product. It's the consumer who burns it. I mean, know says you have to burn it.?


Instead of getting angry with a business that sells a product, I think people need to look at their own actions if they want to save money or be free of gas. Seriously, you expect a company to do it for you?
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  #64  
Old 04.03.2011, 15:26
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Re: Calling for a fuel boycott

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who spilled the oil?? esso is exxon in europe.
And was one of the names Exxon went by before they changed the name to Exxon back in the '70s.

Tom
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  #65  
Old 04.03.2011, 15:26
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Re: Calling for a fuel boycott

Getting back on topic here, who is to say that 1 euro 50 is expensive for a litre of fuel? I don't own a car any more (but I have had many in the past) but I don't think the price of fuel is unreasonable.

I think you could argue that for the environment we can raise the price to 10 euros a litre and it still wouldn't be high enough. Maybe then people would think about whether the trip was necessary. I agree cars are not always a luxury but when I had a car we would end up going out just for the hell of it. I have made hundreds of unnecessary trips and I'm sure I'm not alone.
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  #66  
Old 04.03.2011, 15:28
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Re: Calling for a fuel boycott

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who spilled the oil?? esso is exxon in europe.
what's your point? mine was that this wasn't tea party in origin, as seen from the references. tea partiers are too ignorant to know esso is the international trade name for exxon.
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  #67  
Old 04.03.2011, 15:30
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Re: Calling for a fuel boycott

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except its less fuel efficient then a 5 series bmw diesel and only marginally better the a Jeep diesel, and waaaaaaaaay less the a vw polo eco diesel thing.
Sh1...into that rubbish again. VCS numbers (overall consumption)
BMW 530d - 6.3 l/100km 166 g/km CO2
Jeep CHD 2.2 - 6.6 l/100km 172 g/km CO2
Prius - 3.9l/100km 89 g/km CO2

The best Polo is 2.9l and 87 g/Km...but of course that is a lot smaller than the Prius. In reality the Prius would probably beat it in a city, the Polo would easily win on a longer journey.
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  #68  
Old 04.03.2011, 15:49
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Re: Calling for a fuel boycott

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no it doesn't. "nukes" provides 20% of US and 80% of french electricity consumption, not power. It less than 5% of the world power consumption.
Yes, but if you look at the base load, the percentage is far higher.

Each type of power station should do what it is best at and nuclear power plants are best at doing the base load and that's the area where they are most cost efficient. Gas plants, for example, are extremely costly in comparison but are still economic if you use them mostly or only at peak load times when you can also sell that power at peak prices. Wind power is also good for that, as it allows you to shut down gas plants at short notice so to be competitive, wind power need only be cheaper than gas, not cheaper than nuclear.

If we do what the Greens want and take out the nuclear base load, we're still going to have to cover the base load somehow and that means running more costly plants at times that the market won't pay the inflated prices that makes them economical.
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  #69  
Old 04.03.2011, 15:53
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Re: Calling for a fuel boycott

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Sh1...into that rubbish again. VCS numbers (overall consumption)
BMW 530d - 6.3 l/100km 166 g/km CO2
Jeep CHD 2.2 - 6.6 l/100km 172 g/km CO2
Prius - 3.9l/100km 89 g/km CO2

The best Polo is 2.9l and 87 g/Km...but of course that is a lot smaller than the Prius. In reality the Prius would probably beat it in a city, the Polo would easily win on a longer journey.

prius supporters will always spout the same rubbish, various independent test have been done and the real world, yes REAL WORLD mpg figures for the prius etc are nothing like the manufacturers mpg, sure if you drive a hybird round town the whole time then it does pretty well (but why have a car if you live in town and never go out of it???), but drive it out of town, even a little bit, and they are pathetic, look at the road tests the times did
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/dri...cle3552994.ece


or the independent
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-st...le-423233.html

or jeep v prius
http://www.cleangreencars.co.uk/jsp/...=846&pageid=-1

if your going to defend something at least get your fact right beforehand
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  #70  
Old 04.03.2011, 15:53
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Re: Calling for a fuel boycott

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Nuclear plants provide electricity (15% of the world consumption maybe) that represents less than 5% of the total power used
As oil runs out or gets more expensive, more and more applicatiosn will switch to electricity. For example electric cars, electric trains etc etc. We are even seeing more things made out of aluminium and less out of steel because steel requires coal whereas aluminium requires electricity
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Old 04.03.2011, 15:56
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Re: Calling for a fuel boycott

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What, apart from electricity, do "power" stations provide?
Please sir! Please sir!! I know, I know!


Heat (from CHP plants).


Synthetic fuel - typically diesel or avation fuel.


Oh, and agricultural fertiliser.


And fresh water.




It's also a useful way of getting rid of a lot of waste (municipal waste, old oil, old tyres) that would otherwise be destined for landfill or other longterm storage
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  #72  
Old 04.03.2011, 15:58
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Re: Calling for a fuel boycott

I havent moved my car since christmas.

That is the way I do a fuel boycott.... just ride your bikes
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  #73  
Old 04.03.2011, 16:22
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Re: Calling for a fuel boycott

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prius supporters will always spout the same rubbish, various independent test have been done and the real world, yes REAL WORLD mpg figures for the prius etc are nothing like the manufacturers mpg, sure if you drive a hybird round town the whole time then it does pretty well (but why have a car if you live in town and never go out of it???), but drive it out of town, even a little bit, and they are pathetic, look at the road tests the times did
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/dri...cle3552994.ece


or the independent
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-st...le-423233.html

or jeep v prius
http://www.cleangreencars.co.uk/jsp/...=846&pageid=-1

if your going to defend something at least get your fact right beforehand
I hired the old model for 10 days and pretty well exactly matched the figures claimed for that model - 5.0l/100Km (measured) against a claimed 5.4l for that model by Toyota. Mixed city and country over about 2,000 Km. Fact. And a much longer test that that in the final study you quote. Agreed (and as I have acknowledged) no better than a decent smaller diesel. Also agreed (as indicated by the last item) that the consumption is worse at motorway speeds - anything above about 110 Km/h brought a massive drop on the computer.

The study reported by the Independent (not anything by the Indy itself, mind) has been very thoroughly discredited.

No idea about the Times thing as I can't see past their paywall.
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  #74  
Old 04.03.2011, 16:31
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Re: Calling for a fuel boycott

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Completely wrong.
Uranium is in very limited supply. All the known ressources wouldn't cover 10% of the world energy consumption.
when people start looking for it in the same way as oil, i'm sure there will be a lot more. i think known supplies at the moment are enough for at least 40 years of world consumption.
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Old 04.03.2011, 16:46
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Re: Calling for a fuel boycott

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when people start looking for it in the same way as oil, i'm sure there will be a lot more. i think known supplies at the moment are enough for at least 40 years of world consumption.
without as was said before using fast breeder tech - which will in evitably be used big time - then you're at several thousand years.
BTW how's your uranium investment now compared to the others ?
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Old 04.03.2011, 17:12
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Re: Calling for a fuel boycott

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As oil runs out or gets more expensive, more and more applicatiosn will switch to electricity. For example electric cars, electric trains etc etc. We are even seeing more things made out of aluminium and less out of steel because steel requires coal whereas aluminium requires electricity
I believe electricity is used more and more because it's cleaner in high density areas, but the source of the power is mostly oil and coal. Most of US electricity is made from coal. we can't oppose oil and electricity since oil is the source of energy and electricity is a mean of using it. We still don't have a way to replace oil as a source of power, that's why it will get interesting when it reaches $200...
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  #77  
Old 04.03.2011, 17:12
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Re: Calling for a fuel boycott

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Completely wrong.
Uranium is in very limited supply. All the known ressources wouldn't cover 10% of the world energy consumption.
It's the most expensive way of making electricity, considering the construcion AND destrucion costs of power plants. The power companies running them (and states) prentend it's cheap excluding down times and destruction/recycling costs. Overall it's much more expensive than oil of course.
Completely wrong. If you have a breeder reactor, you create Pu-239 out of U-237. Pu-239 is a nuclear fuel. There are, currently known, at least 10'000 years suppy of U-237.

Only China and Japan are using breeder reactors, so when the oil and U-235 runs out, we know who'll be ruling the world.

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It's not safe....
Not even worthy of a response.

At least high oil prices will force all the poor people off the road.
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  #78  
Old 04.03.2011, 17:17
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Re: Calling for a fuel boycott

Just a general question. Is this price increase in oil any way different to the record prices in cotton, cacao, corn, gold and raw minerals we have in our phones? All we ever hear is how certain natural resources are at record prices?
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Old 04.03.2011, 17:23
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Re: Calling for a fuel boycott

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Completely wrong. If you have a breeder reactor, you create Pu-239 out of U-237. Pu-239 is a nuclear fuel. There are, currently known, at least 10'000 years suppy of U-237.

Only China and Japan are using breeder reactors, so when the oil and U-235 runs out, we know who'll be ruling the world.

Not even worthy of a response.

At least high oil prices will force all the poor people off the road.
Is it a thread for random comments an inacurate affirmations?
It's U238, and there less than 100 years of supply of it
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Old 04.03.2011, 18:23
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Re: Calling for a fuel boycott

According to the owners of the Gösgen Nuclear reactor, with the breeder reactor there's enough Uranium reserves to last for ten thousands of years

I know you shouldn't always believe the lobbyists and I'm not trying to be a smart ass but where does this gigantic difference in estimations come from?
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