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  #181  
Old 01.06.2011, 19:21
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

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A few missiles will make a mess in Israel - but Israeli artillery is currently within range of Damascus. or shall I say Dahia 2 ?



I hope that new Syrian regime will be more peaceful than the current one and will have Syrian people's interest in mind, instead of military "honor" adventures.
What "military honour adventures" have you in mind in regard to the Assad regime ? The regime of Dr Assad has been really peaceful, at least internationally.
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  #182  
Old 01.06.2011, 20:03
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

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To whom do these leaders need to appeal in terms of charisma?
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to the local population

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As long as the west tries to impose 'charismatic leaders' whom they believe will be suppliant to western businesses, then there will be no change. The countries will churn in turmoil, atrocities will continue to take place and corruption will be rife. But keeping a country in a state of turmoil may be preferable to some when faced with the alterntive.
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the West in the past has NOT imposed "charismatic leaders", as leaders like Bourguiba and Nasser and Sadat were NOT "imposed", neither was King Hussein bin Talal ! And countries like Tunisia, Egypt and Syria in recent decades were NOT in turmoil. And were not dominated by atrocities.
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you mention corruption. Ever realized that the most corrupt country in the Mediterranean is democratic Italy ?

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What the middle eastern people need to do is find a leader whose charisma is formed from the respect that they have earned from the people of the country- forget world-wide charisma. Also its about time that women were more included- why are all these ' charismatic leaders' male? A Modern Muslim woman would be the most potent symbol. Alhamdulilah!
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the charismatic leaders I mentioned profited from the respect they had earned locally.
- Bourguiba had lead Tunisia into independence
- Nasser improved healthcare, education, industry
- Sadat moved Egypt into peace and modernized the economy
- Mubarak never had charisma, but had respect as being a war hero, and has he modernized education and the traffic infrastructure. Under his rule, Cairo got its underground railways system, city highways, etc, AND under his rule, Bilharziosis was eliminated
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women in power ? the position of women in the Arab World in the 1970ies and 80ies in fact was better than now as the late 1980ies and the 1990ies resulted setbacks for female rights. It will improve again, but this needs time. Interestingly however there are quite many female business leaders all over the Arab World

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We criticize these Arab countries (Pashosh of course is most vehement, because he fears the consequences for Israel) . We forget the time it took for countries to reform after the fall of the iron curtain. Indeed some are actually turning full circle and choosing leaders that they had before the fall of the curtain. How many years is it from when the wall came down? Did the west criticize the amount of time it was taking and predict that these people didn't know what they were doing and were doomed to failure simply because they didn't get it right straight away? No!
So these countries should be allowed time..
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Did the West criticize the amount of time it was taking and ..... ? If you mean WEST GERMANY, then the answer is a clear yes. How quite many West Germans commented about the "Ossis" until not too long ago was a shame !

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The other fallacy is that these revolutions can be mapped or controlled by the internet. No-one can predict. People are natural beings, they morph and evolve. As much as we would like we may try to control, but can not predict the way of revolution.
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These revolutions only were possible thanks to the Internet. Ironic is that the Internet in Egypt for years was heavily supported by Hosni Mubarak.

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I am obsessed at present with the influence of Qatar, the Qatar national bank and their relationship with China.
what is China's role in all of this? How does it stand to gain or lose?
My understanding is really basic, so I would appreciate anyone's comment even Pashosh's. (Pashosh is not an idiot, he is simply scared his whole world and perhaps identity is under threat.) But my question is that China is building up it's influence wherever it can Africa, Caucuses and Central Asia the Far East and Middle east.
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China is to expand its economic and political power quite universally, and this is of advantage for most. Look at Zurich. Zurich had lost Air China and Cathay Pacific more than a decade ago but since yesterday now has Hainan Airlines operating between Beijing and Zurich. Egypt builds Chinese training jets and small fighter jets under licence, and the about 300 Chinese instructors provide practical technical expertise to Egyptian engineers. Chinese banking institutions have bought up European state loans in various countries and so helped the finance crisis to be contained.

China is building roads and airports and sanitary installations in countries between Burma and Senegal, and exports many industrial products the world over, while becoming a tremendous market for many other countries. Switzerland for example exports watches, machines, electricals, pharmaceuticals, medicines, instruments and chocolates to China.

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All of these countries are seeing the spread or reemergence of Islam. Both will be fighting for resources to support their growth- won't they knock heads eventually?
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No, all these countries have seen the re-emergence of Islam. But Islam was and is not the problem. The problem was and is a form of radical Islam. And when the Fundamentalists in the late 1990ies had to realize that they could not succeed by peaceful means and that this re-emergence had run out of steam they resorted to violence.
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China sells products to the US and the US owes China, suppose Islam spreads to China? It seems like the Chinese agricultural farmers are ripe for change. Al Qaeda had the wrong target!
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Islam has NOT to spread to China, as it already is there . More than 20 mio. Chinese are Muslims .

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Russia will not lose out. Iran is playing a very clever game, they will continue to maintain relations with China and Russia.
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Iran is just doing what everybody does. Why should it not ?

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I wonder though what will happen with the Russian base in Syria.
There is only the base in Tartous. The Russian Eskadra however has the right to send ships to Latakia seaport for repairs. Dr Assad invited the Russians as it provides thousands of Syrians with work, quite a lot of that work fairly qualified engineering work, and it provides many Syrian engineers with practical training in technology. The Russians on their side had increasing problems with their basis on Ukraine-owned Crimea. Among the problems were shoddy assistance work of the Ukrainians and things very close to sabotage.
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Whomever takes over in Damascus will have a very high interest to keep the Russians content, and the Russians have a very high interest to keep the Syrians content. Whomever takes over in Damascus also will have to rely on Russia for new stuff for the Air Force. I do not believe that either side will ask the White House for advice
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  #183  
Old 01.06.2011, 23:48
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

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I found the thread interesting. I think USA and Israel will be happy to keep the ASAD regime. It is a safe regime for them (Assad didn't fight at all Israel in order to get back the Gholan). The next regime will be more dangerous for them. Look for ex. to egypt, USA wanted to keep the Mubarak regime. Now, it will be risky for them i.e. the border between ghaza and egypt is open to all.

thats what i have been saying here for a long time, duh, its a well established fact, but good luck convincing our israeli propagandist hasbara friend here!
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  #184  
Old 01.06.2011, 23:56
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

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thats what i have been saying here for a long time, duh, its a well established fact
fact ? How is Israel supporting Assad ?

Is Israel sending advisors (like Iran) or maybe lucrative business deals (Like Turkey), perhaps military bases (Russia) or nuclear reactors (North Korea).

How ?
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  #185  
Old 02.06.2011, 00:18
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

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thats what i have been saying here for a long time, duh, its a well established fact, but good luck convincing our israeli propagandist hasbara friend here!
There of course is another very good reason why the USA want to convince the Dr Assad regime to develop a "human face of dictatorship" and that is that "the man of the Assads in Baghdad" to the bad luck of the USA is identical with "the man of the Americans in Baghdad" ! Amazing how that fox managed to enjoy the support of both Damascus and Washington/DC and please them both !
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  #186  
Old 02.06.2011, 00:44
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

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fact ? How is Israel supporting Assad ?

Is Israel sending advisors (like Iran) or maybe lucrative business deals (Like Turkey), perhaps military bases (Russia) or nuclear reactors (North Korea).

How ?
how much more pathetic can you really get?

read about lucrative dealings of Israeli firms with IRAN, from Haaretz:

http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/the-arm...-iran-1.364069

your brushing aside of every fact you are presented tells a lot about your motives here
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  #187  
Old 02.06.2011, 01:04
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

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how much more pathetic can you really get?

read about lucrative dealings of Israeli firms with IRAN, from Haaretz:

http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/the-arm...-iran-1.364069

your brushing aside of every fact you are presented tells a lot about your motives here
And what exactly ? Israeli has had good economic relations with Iran for decades, going back into the times of Imperial Iran. BUT having economic deals with Iran is NOT support for Syria, not even indirectly. In spite of the good economic and tactical relations between Iran and Syria.

Look at Palestine. Iran supports Hamas, Syria supports el-Saika. Syria against good payments channels Iranian supplies to Hamas, but parts of the profits go straight to Secularist anti-Hamas PLO member al-Saika.

Look at Lebanon. Iran supports Hizbullah, Syria supports Amal. Both are Shi'ite, but Amal is for jokers "Hizbullah with Red Wine" and so clearly secularist. In this case again, Syria channels, against serious payments, Iranian supplies to Hizbullah, but also profits out of these deals to some extent are used to support both Amal and the Frangieh (Maronite Christians) movement in Lebanon.

Sure, Iran allow Syria to produce Iranian motor cars under licence. And lots of other deals

But Iran produces the Antonov 140 as "Iran 140" under licence, and on their side co-operates with many countries.

"Her Clintonite Highness" Dame Hillary may not be amused ! But the world is not around to appease and amuse the US Secretary of State
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  #188  
Old 02.06.2011, 09:27
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

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how much more pathetic can you really get?

read about lucrative dealings of Israeli firms with IRAN, from Haaretz:

http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/the-arm...-iran-1.364069

your brushing aside of every fact you are presented tells a lot about your motives here
Some Israelis did business with Iran - what does that have to do with Syria ?
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  #189  
Old 02.06.2011, 22:50
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

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Some Israelis did business with Iran - what does that have to do with Syria ?
Some people here in the West think that any commercial deals with Iran in some ways automatically benefit countries like Syria, Ukraine, Russia and China. I personally am astonished to learn that such deals are continued, but even if in danger to be accused of support for "immoral business" support the personal courage of the Israeli businessmen in question. I do NOT believe that they by their dealings either really support the Iranian top leadership or damage the national interests of their own country. I am in favour of some realism
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  #190  
Old 14.06.2011, 17:27
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

The Syrian crisis continues - Thousands flee to Turkey, only to be locked up in camps with no access to the outside world, no foreign reporters are allowed to to them (very democratic Turkey, a role model to the middle east).

The area the refugees flee to is considered by many Syrians as part of Syria (TAI or Hatai) given by French to Turkey back in the 1920s.

There is even talk of the Turkish army establishing a "safe zone" inside Syria - this will be interesting, maybe they will use the same tactics they used in Iraqi Kurdistan.

The Russians will try to block western action - to defend their big (only?) mediterranian Navy port (Tartous) - So a Libyan style intervention is probably not in the cards.

Maybe an Israeli promise (or threat thereof) of supporting Druze & Kurdish autonomy will put more pressure on Assad to go. But replaced by whom ? the anti assad crowd is shouting "Allah hu akbar", not "freedom & democracy"
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  #191  
Old 14.06.2011, 17:33
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

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The Syrian crisis continues - Thousands flee to Turkey, only to be locked up in camps with no access to the outside world, no foreign reporters are allowed to to them (very democratic Turkey, a role model to the middle east).

The area the refugees flee to is considered by many Syrians as part of Syria (TAI or Hatai) given by French to Turkey back in the 1920s.

There is even talk of the Turkish army establishing a "safe zone" inside Syria - this will be interesting, maybe they will use the same tactics they used in Iraqi Kurdistan.

The Russians will try to block western action - to defend their big (only?) mediterranian Navy port (Tartous) - So a Libyan style intervention is probably not in the cards.

Maybe an Israeli promise (or threat thereof) of supporting Druze & Kurdish autonomy will put more pressure on Assad to go. But replaced by whom ? the anti assad crowd is shouting "Allah hu akbar", not "freedom & democracy"
I disagree, amongst all the anguish this Syrian situation has caused , the Turkish decision to open their borders to Syrian refugees is the most open humanitarian decision so far.
They most certainly should not be criticised for it so cynically.
Israeli support of Kurds will only alienate the Turkish govt who have been very even handed so far.
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  #192  
Old 14.06.2011, 17:40
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

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I disagree, amongst all the anguish this Syrian situation has caused , the Turkish decision to open their borders to Syrian refugees is the most open humanitarian decision so far.
They most certainly should not be criticised for it so cynically.
Israeli support of Kurds will only alienate the Turkish govt who have been very even handed so far.
Why is Turkey blocking foreign access to the Refugees ?

The Turkish government took an anti Israel line 2 years ago, but anyway - why not support a Kurdish autonomy ? They are a people after all, with their own language & culture.
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  #193  
Old 14.06.2011, 17:58
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

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Why is Turkey blocking foreign access to the Refugees ?

The Turkish government took an anti Israel line 2 years ago, but anyway - why not support a Kurdish autonomy ? They are a people after all, with their own language & culture.
About "Why is Turkey blocking foreign access to the Refugees ?" to prevent them giving their versions of what is happening in Syria.

Why that?
  • to avoid upsetting the Syrian govt?
  • to give the Syrian army no excuse to march into Turkey & drag back their people?
  • or?
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  #194  
Old 14.06.2011, 18:00
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

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I disagree, amongst all the anguish this Syrian situation has caused , the Turkish decision to open their borders to Syrian refugees is the most open humanitarian decision so far.
They most certainly should not be criticised for it so cynically.
Israeli support of Kurds will only alienate the Turkish govt who have been very even handed so far.
About "They most certainly should not be criticised for it so cynically."

What criticism? This is a factual statement about how the refugees are treated, or do you have other information?
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  #195  
Old 14.06.2011, 18:48
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

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The Syrian crisis continues - Thousands flee to Turkey, only to be locked up in camps with no access to the outside world, no foreign reporters are allowed to to them (very democratic Turkey, a role model to the middle east).

The area the refugees flee to is considered by many Syrians as part of Syria (TAI or Hatai) given by French to Turkey back in the 1920s.

There is even talk of the Turkish army establishing a "safe zone" inside Syria - this will be interesting, maybe they will use the same tactics they used in Iraqi Kurdistan.

The Russians will try to block western action - to defend their big (only?) mediterranian Navy port (Tartous) - So a Libyan style intervention is probably not in the cards.

Maybe an Israeli promise (or threat thereof) of supporting Druze & Kurdish autonomy will put more pressure on Assad to go. But replaced by whom ? the anti assad crowd is shouting "Allah hu akbar", not "freedom & democracy"
more crazy talk...you will never give up, will you?
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  #196  
Old 14.06.2011, 18:51
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

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more crazy talk...you will never give up, will you?
Other then Ad hominems you have very little to contribute (conspiracy "theories" don't count).

Can you please point to factual inaccuracies ?
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  #197  
Old 14.06.2011, 18:53
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

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About "They most certainly should not be criticised for it so cynically."

What criticism? This is a factual statement about how the refugees are treated, or do you have other information?
let me give you some "information" my friend: Turkey set up refugee camps for nearly ten thousand people in a matter of 2 days, all they have to complain is "boredom" at the moment, they are safe, well fed, well taken care of. This is quite a contrast compared to what many European countries will do when it comes to refugees, Europeans simply turn the ships back or put them directly into jail. In the case of Greece, they build border fences, and sometimes dump refugees into water to be picked up nobody but the Turkish navy.

Turkey is currently helping the Syrian refugees by risking a confrontation with Syria AND Iran. Now tell us what Europeans, Americans and Israeli's are doing about the crisis in Syria...(other than agitating the situation even more)
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  #198  
Old 14.06.2011, 18:56
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

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Other then Ad hominems you have very little to contribute (conspiracy "theories" don't count).

Can you please point to factual inaccuracies ?
I normally would do that, as I did many times with you in the past, but you have a record of ignoring facts and arguments and repeating the same BS over, and over and over and over...

kind of make me think you are a computer program or something...or a mankurt caught up in double think...or a paid propagandist. But never a reliable counterpart in rational dialogue
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  #199  
Old 14.06.2011, 19:22
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

So more ad hominems and conspiracies, no attempt of polite discussion.

Why is this allowed on this forum ?
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  #200  
Old 14.06.2011, 22:30
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

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The Syrian crisis continues - Thousands flee to Turkey, only to be locked up in camps with no access to the outside world, no foreign reporters are allowed to to them (very democratic Turkey, a role model to the middle east).

The area the refugees flee to is considered by many Syrians as part of Syria (TAI or Hatai) given by French to Turkey back in the 1920s.

There is even talk of the Turkish army establishing a "safe zone" inside Syria - this will be interesting, maybe they will use the same tactics they used in Iraqi Kurdistan.

The Russians will try to block western action - to defend their big (only?) mediterranian Navy port (Tartous) - So a Libyan style intervention is probably not in the cards.

Maybe an Israeli promise (or threat thereof) of supporting Druze & Kurdish autonomy will put more pressure on Assad to go. But replaced by whom ? the anti assad crowd is shouting "Allah hu akbar", not "freedom & democracy"
>> Turkey wants the Syrian refugeees to return as soon as possible and NOT to mingle with the partially Arabic speaking population of Kylikia
>> in defence of France, it is to be said that the army of Mustafa Kemal conquered Kylikia and threw the French out
>> amazing is that all maps around in Syria show the Sandchak of Iskandariyah as Syrian territory
>> Israel ought to keep out. Any Israeli involvement would be disastrous.
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