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  #441  
Old 30.09.2015, 14:53
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

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Originally Posted by Phos View Post
Like I said, I believe he simply wants to ensure Assad does not fall. Anything beyond that is tactically negotiable. Putin is not afraid of looking stupid. He's not. He already has the West by the balls. I'm sure he'll look for opportunities to gain more.

Simply naive and wishful to think that Putin will be coming into Syria to save the day, free of charge, and the refugees come home. I believe he's positioning for a more valuable proposition point.

You don't play chess to keep playing chess, you play chess to win.

About " he simply wants to ensure Assad does not fall" The pitifully small group Putin has assembled in Syria cannot ensure this; there are at least a hundred thousand armed rebels of different flavours running around.
There has already been an ISIS attack on the Russian air base; very few details have emerged.


About " He already has the West by the balls" Could you explain how?


Putin has proposed an anti ISIS alliance which he would lead but so far practically nobody has joined. Laurent Fabius, France’s foreign minister, derided Russian claims to be leading the anti-terrorist campaign in Syria, as “media strikes rather than real strikes”.


Russia launched their first air attacks today which, it is claimed, killed 6 children amongst others.
Could somebody explain how these Russian attacks are better or different than the air attacks which the West and allies have been doing for some time.
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  #442  
Old 30.09.2015, 15:09
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

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Originally Posted by marton View Post
About " He already has the West by the balls" Could you explain how?
He can do what he wants there without asking the West for permission. Also, by cooperating with Iran, Iraq and Syria, demonstrates more legitimacy to be there than the West. He's basically accentuating the point that the West lost leadership and credibility in the region.

How are they better? Better for whom?
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  #443  
Old 30.09.2015, 15:22
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

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Originally Posted by marton View Post
...
Could somebody explain how these Russian attacks are better or different than the air attacks which the West and allies have been doing for some time.
Something tells me that the Russian attacks will be way more effective than the Western ones
Bye bye ISIS
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  #444  
Old 30.09.2015, 15:46
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

I don't know of any cases when the Russian military has shown proficiency other than when they massively outnumbered their opponent, in cases like 5 to 1, or 10 to 1. Also don't know of any instances where they effectively policed a region without ground forces. However, they have exhibited proficiency with clandestine operations, proxy guerrilla wars and geopolitical strategizing.

i think this is a new type of area and mission for them. These are more like a Special Operations kind of mission. But feel free to show examples where they have shown capabilities in similar areas.
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  #445  
Old 30.09.2015, 16:57
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phos View Post
He can do what he wants there without asking the West for permission. Also, by cooperating with Iran, Iraq and Syria, demonstrates more legitimacy to be there than the West. He's basically accentuating the point that the West lost leadership and credibility in the region.

How are they better? Better for whom?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phos View Post
I don't know of any cases when the Russian military has shown proficiency other than when they massively outnumbered their opponent, in cases like 5 to 1, or 10 to 1. Also don't know of any instances where they effectively policed a region without ground forces. However, they have exhibited proficiency with clandestine operations, proxy guerrilla wars and geopolitical strategizing.

i think this is a new type of area and mission for them. These are more like a Special Operations kind of mission. But feel free to show examples where they have shown capabilities in similar areas.


About "He can do what he wants there without asking the West for permission. " How is this "has the West by the balls"?
Who cares what he does in Syria?
Anyway bombing ISIS from a base located in Syria is asking for trouble.


About "demonstrates more legitimacy to be there " legitimacy? the man who has killed thousands in E. Ukraine with illegitimate forces.


About "they have shown capabilities in similar areas" Afghanistan!!


About "the Russian military has shown proficiency ....massively outnumbered" Indeed but here he does not have these massive numbers
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  #446  
Old 30.09.2015, 18:40
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

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Originally Posted by marton View Post
About "He can do what he wants there without asking the West for permission. " How is this "has the West by the balls"?
Who cares what he does in Syria?
Anyway bombing ISIS from a base located in Syria is asking for trouble.


About "demonstrates more legitimacy to be there " legitimacy? the man who has killed thousands in E. Ukraine with illegitimate forces.


About "they have shown capabilities in similar areas" Afghanistan!!


About "the Russian military has shown proficiency ....massively outnumbered" Indeed but here he does not have these massive numbers
Russia left Afghanistan a long time ago. Do you remember who is unsuccessfully fighting Taliban in Afghanistan for the last 15 years?

Talking about the Russian capabilities -- if you still consider Crimea being occupied by the Russian military forces, then you could use this as example of the Russian capability.
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  #447  
Old 30.09.2015, 19:10
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

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Originally Posted by leonie View Post
Something tells me that the Russian attacks will be way more effective than the Western ones
Bye bye ISIS

Yes on their first raid the Russians killed 6 children
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  #448  
Old 30.09.2015, 19:18
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

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Originally Posted by leonie View Post
Something tells me that the Russian attacks will be way more effective than the Western ones
Bye bye ISIS
Yeah, dream on...

Russians are there just to shore up Assad against the opposition. ISIS is going to be there for a long time, at least until someone puts up the 50k+ troops required to effectively deal with them. Russia is nowhere near that kind of commitment
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  #449  
Old 30.09.2015, 19:39
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

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Originally Posted by marton View Post
Yes on their first raid the Russians killed 6 children
Any reason to think Russia will concern itself too much with civilian non-combatant casualties? Their man Bashar certainly hasn't been.
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  #450  
Old 30.09.2015, 19:50
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

Seems Russia bombed the Free Syrian Army not ISIS. 😧
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  #451  
Old 30.09.2015, 19:58
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

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Originally Posted by marton View Post
Seems Russia bombed the Free Syrian Army not ISIS. 😧

Which is not a surprise, is it?
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  #452  
Old 30.09.2015, 21:39
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

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Originally Posted by marton View Post
Seems Russia bombed the Free Syrian Army not ISIS. 😧
Quote:
Originally Posted by yacek View Post
Which is not a surprise, is it?

Sadly not a surprise


Either Putin being devious as usual


Or Russian army incompetence


Or both
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  #453  
Old 30.09.2015, 21:49
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

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Originally Posted by marton View Post
Sadly not a surprise


Either Putin being devious as usual


Or Russian army incompetence


Or both
It's getting more and more interesting. Russia launched air attack in Syria on a very short notice warning the US to remove its planes ...

http://dailym.ai/1FDjl28
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  #454  
Old 30.09.2015, 22:13
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

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Originally Posted by jacek View Post
It's getting more and more interesting. Russia launched air attack in Syria on a very short notice warning the US to remove its planes ...

http://dailym.ai/1FDjl28
Well, Russia was invited by Syria, and the US wasn't. In fact, US actions there are questionable. So once again, Putin scores a point against Obama.

Geez, Putin makes Obama look quite amateur.
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  #455  
Old 30.09.2015, 22:25
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

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Originally Posted by Phos View Post
Well, Russia was invited by Syria, and the US wasn't. In fact, US actions there are questionable. So once again, Putin scores a point against Obama.

Geez, Putin makes Obama look quite amateur.
Why would Syria invite the US when the US want to remove Assad?
You think Obama should support Assad

Currently Putin looks the amateur or devious as usual; claiming to be fighting ISIS when actually bombing the Free Syrian Army.
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  #456  
Old 30.09.2015, 22:34
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

Syria is sill a sovereign state, meaning the west's actions are not legitimate, while Russia's actions are legitimate.
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  #457  
Old 30.09.2015, 22:37
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

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Originally Posted by marton View Post
Seems Russia bombed the Free Syrian Army not ISIS. 😧
Is the "Free Syrian Army" composed of good terrorists or bad terrorists ?
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  #458  
Old 30.09.2015, 22:56
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

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Originally Posted by me.anon View Post
Is the "Free Syrian Army" composed of good terrorists or bad terrorists ?


Wrong question; if Russia bombs and kills people in the "Free Syrian Army" then it leaves an open place for ISIS to move in and take over.
This seems to be an unproductive approach to defeating ISIS.


Of course, Russia could decide to defeat ISIS by first picking off the other rebel groups; since there are at least a thousand rebel groups then it could take three or four years before the other groups are picked off and Russia would be free to concentrate on ISIS. By then ISIS could have grown into a powerful force, or not
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  #459  
Old 30.09.2015, 23:01
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

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Originally Posted by Phos View Post
Syria is sill a sovereign state, meaning the west's actions are not legitimate, while Russia's actions are legitimate.

Who cares?
What is your definition of legitimate?
Is supporting a dictator and so being complicit in his war crimes legitimate?
Will Russia sanction the West?
Are Putin's actions in E. Ukraine legitimate?
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  #460  
Old 30.09.2015, 23:06
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

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Originally Posted by marton View Post
Who cares?
Probably people who care about factual realities.

So WWIII may come about like a slow gradual boil the proverbial frog does not notice, imstead of a single earth shattering event.
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