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  #141  
Old 17.05.2011, 22:57
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

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Originally Posted by Pashosh View Post
The Mass killings in Syria continue, Iran may be involved .

Still - no outcry, no major demonstration in European cities.

One would have expected some of the people who were so upset about the killing of Bin Laden, universal human rights etc to make the voices heard, but the silence is deafening.
I saw a small demonstration in Freiburg ( Germany) last weekend, 50 - 70 people I would guess, protesting the killing in Syria.

Interesting to look this and other ME related threads after they have percolated for a while and see how events have bankrupted many of the earlier wilder speculations.

Assad is quite clearly a thug like his father. Also I think it ought to be mentioned how convenient ME dictators have found Israel in order to distract their population from their own failed states. Having an external enemy is Single Party State 101.
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  #142  
Old 18.05.2011, 00:33
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

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Originally Posted by gray View Post
I saw a small demonstration in Freiburg ( Germany) last weekend, 50 - 70 people I would guess, protesting the killing in Syria.

Interesting to look this and other ME related threads after they have percolated for a while and see how events have bankrupted many of the earlier wilder speculations.

Assad is quite clearly a thug like his father. Also I think it ought to be mentioned how convenient ME dictators have found Israel in order to distract their population from their own failed states. Having an external enemy is Single Party State 101.
What is a thug ? Generally, if you look at their performance in regard to
- economy
- education
- healthcare
- infrastructure
the bottomline of the Assads is fairly nice
-
to what extent they personally profited from political power, I cannot tell you.
-
Israel may have been convenient for many Arab politicians, but it blocking the land connection between Egypt and Lebanon/Syria/Jordan was bad for regional economic development. "Failed states" sound as if they were more "failed" than Italy or Greece or Cyprus or Iran or .... countries elsewhere around. Which is rubbish. Iberia (Spain+Portugal) stayed fairly ugly dictatorships for a very long time, and then gradually became democracies. It however may be recorded that in Spain, Caudillo Francisco Franco del Bahamonde achieved quite a lot of progress for his country, even if his totalitarian dictatorian methods and attitudes were long a thing of the past.
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  #143  
Old 18.05.2011, 17:15
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

Someone asked what the world is doing- sorry can't find the post.
I suppose the mass graves which Syria claims is untrue was the last straw for some- anything that smacks of genocide get the Europeans going, as the Syrian regime is different from the majority I'm not sure whether it can be classed as genocide but I guess it is some kind of cide. anyway I stop prattling and let you read:

Swiss announced sanctions against Syria. What will sanctions do?

http://www.thelocal.ch/210/20110518/
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics...l?cid=30260824
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  #144  
Old 18.05.2011, 20:40
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

I have a "functioning" watch (tells the right time twice a day) and it's also quite "nice" - would you buy it ?

Neither do the Syrians with riegards to the "nice" and "functioning" leadership they have - the economy is terrible, the environment is a disaster - as for Education & Healthcare, none of them is reason to be proud.

Israel is blocking inter-arab trade ? I assume that as a Swiss your knowledge of Ships may be limited, but most of the world's trade is done by sea.
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  #145  
Old 18.05.2011, 20:51
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

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Originally Posted by Wollishofener View Post
What is a thug ? Generally, if you look at their performance in regard to
- economy
- education
- healthcare
- infrastructure
the bottomline of the Assads is fairly nice
-
to what extent they personally profited from political power, I cannot tell you.
-
Israel may have been convenient for many Arab politicians, but it blocking the land connection between Egypt and Lebanon/Syria/Jordan was bad for regional economic development. "Failed states" sound as if they were more "failed" than Italy or Greece or Cyprus or Iran or .... countries elsewhere around. Which is rubbish. Iberia (Spain+Portugal) stayed fairly ugly dictatorships for a very long time, and then gradually became democracies. It however may be recorded that in Spain, Caudillo Francisco Franco del Bahamonde achieved quite a lot of progress for his country, even if his totalitarian dictatorian methods and attitudes were long a thing of the past.

In this case we'll use thug to mean someone who maintains political power through repression and deadly violence.

Frankly if you are murdering your own citizens to maintain your personal grip on power it doesn't matter how many highways or schools you build.

BTW I've read that Syria has more security agencies than universities, is that true?

Are there any other fascist thugs you are going to offer apologies for ?
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  #146  
Old 19.05.2011, 01:14
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

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Originally Posted by Pashosh View Post
I have a "functioning" watch (tells the right time twice a day) and it's also quite "nice" - would you buy it ?

Neither do the Syrians with riegards to the "nice" and "functioning" leadership they have - the economy is terrible, the environment is a disaster - as for Education & Healthcare, none of them is reason to be proud.

Israel is blocking inter-arab trade ? I assume that as a Swiss your knowledge of Ships may be limited, but most of the world's trade is done by sea.
A) A watch telling the right time twice a day most likely also is telling the right time at most times of the day
B) the Syrian economy is NOT the problem of Dr Assad as it in the past was far more horrible
C) education and healthcare in Syria is far better than in many other Arab countries
D) most of the world trade if measured by weight or volume may be done by sea, but if you measure how much is done BY VALUE it looks quite different
E = D2 ) Palestine/Israel is the landroute between Egypt on one side and the Mashreek on the other. And so, yes, Israel did and does block the direct connection between central parts of the Arab World
F) a good peace treaty would allow Lydda-BenGurion-Airport to become a major hub for the whole region, Ashkelon to be THE major oil-terminal of the Arab World, and Haifa to be THE major seaport for Syria and Jordan. People here do NOT love those folks in Hamburg, Rotterdam, Antwerp, LeHavre, Marseille, Genova, Livorno and Trieste, but can work with them
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  #147  
Old 19.05.2011, 01:19
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

Quote:
Originally Posted by gray View Post
In this case we'll use thug to mean someone who maintains political power through repression and deadly violence.

Frankly if you are murdering your own citizens to maintain your personal grip on power it doesn't matter how many highways or schools you build.

BTW I've read that Syria has more security agencies than universities, is that true?

Are there any other fascist thugs you are going to offer apologies for ?
A) YES, Syria has at least 10 security agencies but less than 10 universities
B) YES, if you walk around in Damascus, you at certain places cannot get on the other side of the road, as there is the military officers casino
C) yes, I offer apologies for Benito Mussolini and Caudillo Francisco Franco del Bahamonde and Antonio de Oliveira Salazar --- Mussolini only became worse than the other two as he became an ally of Nazi Germany
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  #148  
Old 19.05.2011, 02:08
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

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Originally Posted by Wollishofener View Post
A) A watch telling the right time twice a day most likely also is telling the right time at most times of the day
You've missed the point, Wolli (off topic though it is) -- it's an old joke. A watch that is NOT working has its hands stopped at one time -- e.g. 2:28. So twice a day, at 02:28 and at 14:28, every day, it will tell the time exactly correctly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wollishofener View Post
D) most of the world trade if measured by weight or volume may be done by sea, but if you measure how much is done BY VALUE it looks quite different
Source, please? This looks a highly dubious claim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wollishofener View Post
C) yes, I offer apologies for Benito Mussolini and Caudillo Francisco Franco del Bahamonde and Antonio de Oliveira Salazar --- Mussolini only became worse than the other two as he became an ally of Nazi Germany
With friends like these, who needs enemies? ... as they say.
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  #149  
Old 19.05.2011, 03:27
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

Forget the watch, it's a silly meataphor.Talking about control of the seas, I was wondering how the Russians were reacting to the threat to their Tartus base on the Syrian Mediterranean and I found this ( below); written by Israel Shamir for Counterpunch. It's a pretty shocking report and one which gives me a whole new perspective on the subject. I suppose it was naive of me to think that the involvement of superpowers could be totally humanitarian, maybe I was just choosing to ignore the obvious.

Quote:
A conspiracy theory? Perhaps, but it is a theory confirmed by the conspirators themselves. President Bashar el Assad was offered a deal by the US Under Secretary of Defense for Policy Michèle Flournoy: break your ties with Hezbullah and Iran, and we will end the riots. Mostafa Zein of the knowledgeable Dar al Hayyat summed it up like this:

“The United States has drafted a roadmap for the Syrian regime, so that it may emerge from its worsening crisis, suggesting that it holds the magic key to make the protesters leave the streets. Flournoy said: “Syria must distance itself from Iran and join the Gulf states, as well as move forward in the peace process with Israel”… The Syrian regime considers such a roadmap to be a “conspiracy” targeting it from within, after the failure of pressure on it from abroad.”
there's also this in the same report about Egypt, but I thought I may as well add it here:

Quote:
This assassination attempt (Ghaddafi) should open the eyes of those in Europe and the US who still believe that this war is ‘just’, or at least ‘justifiable’. The true reasons behind Western neocolonial interventions in the Middle East now stand revealed to all. One small example: the same source in Russian Intelligence also leaked a document, a letter from Libyan rebel leaders promising France 35 per cent of all Libyan oil. So much for humanitarian reasons!
http://www.counterpunch.org/shamir05052011.html
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  #150  
Old 20.05.2011, 01:17
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

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Originally Posted by 22 yards View Post


Source, please? This looks a highly dubious claim.


With friends like these, who needs enemies? ... as they say.

Just look at Britain. The cargo handling by tons of both Southampton and Liverpool is far above London-Heathrow, but the cargo handling of LHR if measured by value has gone higher than LPL-seaport more than a decade ago.

Airfreight worldwide by tons is tiny if compared with seafreight, but if measured by values is quite substantial.

Such things are discussed and explained in numerous cargo magazines. None of the contributors however can supply conclusive evidence as it simply does not exist. While the facts as such are well known.
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  #151  
Old 20.05.2011, 09:04
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

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Originally Posted by Wollishofener View Post
Just look at Britain. The cargo handling by tons of both Southampton and Liverpool is far above London-Heathrow, but the cargo handling of LHR if measured by value has gone higher than LPL-seaport more than a decade ago.

Airfreight worldwide by tons is tiny if compared with seafreight, but if measured by values is quite substantial.

Such things are discussed and explained in numerous cargo magazines. None of the contributors however can supply conclusive evidence as it simply does not exist. While the facts as such are well known.
What you are saying is that Israel is blocking high value trade between Syria and Egypt, for example.

A. Neither Syria nor Egypt has much high value products to sell.
B. Israel is not blocking air routes between the countries.

Neither is the land route blocked by Israel - Egypt could have exported via Israel to Jordan and then onwards, but chose not do so.
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  #152  
Old 20.05.2011, 15:51
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

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Originally Posted by Pashosh View Post
What you are saying is that Israel is blocking high value trade between Syria and Egypt, for example.

A. Neither Syria nor Egypt has much high value products to sell.
B. Israel is not blocking air routes between the countries.

Neither is the land route blocked by Israel - Egypt could have exported via Israel to Jordan and then onwards, but chose not do so.
Israel certainly isn't blocking imports of luxury items from Iran- marble, caviar, pistachios, saffran........
Israel can't get enough of Iranian products- they consider them a luxury.
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  #153  
Old 21.05.2011, 01:32
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pashosh View Post
What you are saying is that Israel is blocking high value trade between Syria and Egypt, for example.

A. Neither Syria nor Egypt has much high value products to sell.
B. Israel is not blocking air routes between the countries.

Neither is the land route blocked by Israel - Egypt could have exported via Israel to Jordan and then onwards, but chose not do so.
A) Egypt has a lot of airfreight-goods to be exported. Both industrial and agricultural goods.
B) I did not refer to air but to land routes
C) the land-route in defacto-terms IS blocked
D) Egypt for exports to the Mashreek rather uses the ferries to Saudi Arabia and then onward, or shipping to Beirut and Latakia
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  #154  
Old 31.05.2011, 22:30
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

Assad's syria crossed a new line in barbarism. A young teenage boy named Hamza has been tortured, killed and mutilated after caught by police. The anger of syrian population is reaching a level that leaves no exit option for Assad.
There are apparently videos on youtube but too graphic to post a link here.
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  #155  
Old 31.05.2011, 22:51
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

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I discuss Syria but not with you and here.
so you broke your word to tell us that Syrian police tortured a teenage prisoner ?

Couldn't find anything less obvious ?

Syrian police have been torturing "opponents" since there is a syrian police. That's what Syrian police do. that's what Arab police forces do.

Nothing new there, sadly.
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  #156  
Old 31.05.2011, 23:24
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

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so you broke your word to tell us that Syrian police tortured a teenage prisoner ?

Couldn't find anything less obvious ?

Syrian police have been torturing "opponents" since there is a syrian police. That's what Syrian police do. that's what Arab police forces do.

Nothing new there, sadly.
And Israeli police don't?
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  #157  
Old 01.06.2011, 01:29
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

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Originally Posted by Pashosh View Post
so you broke your word to tell us that Syrian police tortured a teenage prisoner ?

Couldn't find anything less obvious ?

Syrian police have been torturing "opponents" since there is a syrian police. That's what Syrian police do. that's what Arab police forces do.

Nothing new there, sadly.
you forgot the video footage of IDF soliders breaking hands and legs of handcuffed prisoners.
Here are testimonies of real soldiers who went on the field and have the courage to speak-up. Show at least that you have their courage.

maybe I broke my word but you are breaking everyone's balls here. Stop trolling, remove your pink glasses and see the positive and negative of each side....yes including israel. You do not have the capacity to have a critical view of your own culture and country. Wake up it's not all pink and nice.
You are here criticzing and laughing at people demonstrating and fighting in the street for their rights. Unlike you they are taking real risks and want a better future for themselves and their children. I am not taking the same risks but at least I support their thirst for freedom.
You have no positive contribution except naging around like an embittered old man enjoying schadenfreude.
And remember this forum is free and open to everyone...stop bossing around!
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  #158  
Old 01.06.2011, 08:17
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

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Originally Posted by Pashosh View Post
so you broke your word to tell us that Syrian police tortured a teenage prisoner ?

Couldn't find anything less obvious ?

Syrian police have been torturing "opponents" since there is a syrian police. That's what Syrian police do. that's what Arab police forces do.

Nothing new there, sadly.
Police usually is not torturing. They hand over people to the Mukhaberat, who does

AND, generalisations are wrong anyway. "Arab police forces" do NOT do so anyway, even if some do. Most in fact do NOT. Right you however are in regard to the abysmal reputation of the Syrian Mukhaberat. Which is an essential part of what so many people are so heavily opposed to.
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  #159  
Old 01.06.2011, 09:13
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

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Originally Posted by Wollishofener View Post
Police usually is not torturing. They hand over people to the Mukhaberat, who does

AND, generalisations are wrong anyway. "Arab police forces" do NOT do so anyway, even if some do. Most in fact do NOT. Right you however are in regard to the abysmal reputation of the Syrian Mukhaberat. Which is an essential part of what so many people are so heavily opposed to.
If you compare tunisian and egyptian revolution, you'll see that there is no one single charismatic leader. It's a real mass movement. They have also in common a central victim of the system as symbol to fuel their energy in removing the regime (Bouazizi in Tunisia, Khalid Said in Egypt).....so is hamza the symbol of syrian revolution?
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Old 01.06.2011, 09:27
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Re: Syria - It ain't over till it's over

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Originally Posted by MrVertigo View Post
you forgot the video footage of IDF soliders breaking hands and legs of handcuffed prisoners.
Here are testimonies of real soldiers who went on the field and have the courage to speak-up. Show at least that you have their courage.

maybe I broke my word but you are breaking everyone's balls here. Stop trolling, remove your pink glasses and see the positive and negative of each side....yes including israel. You do not have the capacity to have a critical view of your own culture and country. Wake up it's not all pink and nice.
You are here criticzing and laughing at people demonstrating and fighting in the street for their rights. Unlike you they are taking real risks and want a better future for themselves and their children. I am not taking the same risks but at least I support their thirst for freedom.
You have no positive contribution except naging around like an embittered old man enjoying schadenfreude.
And remember this forum is free and open to everyone...stop bossing around!
How silly of me to expect you to keep your word, post factually, respectfully & on topic.

So what is the positive side of Assad's regime ?

The lack of Opposition leadership in Syria, Egypt & Tunisia is largely because the leaders of these countries (as well as Iran, who is helping Assad) jail or kill the leaders.

Whether these revolutions will lead to greater freedoms remains to be seen.
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