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  #301  
Old 03.07.2015, 10:31
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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Even those of us with booked tickets for Greece this summer are having second thoughts (and we ARE Greeks too). Nobody wants to get stranded somewhere with no flights/strikes and closed banks and ATMs.

...
Turkish tourists could come to the rescue; there were some voices lately in Turkish papers that tourists might choose the Greek islands not just because Turkish prices were high but also to give a neighbour in need some relief.

But apparently Greek visa system had some technical breakdown and visas could not be issued to Turks

Living in Switzerland or farther from Greece, I would not dare flying to Greece but out of Turkey, where there are always boats to Turkish coast, it is no problem
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Old 03.07.2015, 10:46
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

Monday 6th July is going to be very interesting. Hands up all those that expect the banks to open the next day? I wish the Greek clock could be turned back to Christmas, before this ignorant government arrived.
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Old 03.07.2015, 10:56
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

The way I see it we are in for a default, controlled or otherwise, next week.

The risk of an accident is huge right now and unless ECB caves in and restarts ELA with a few freshly printed billion then it's game over.

The problem is that an almost 50/50 vote will be divisive for everyone. That idiot Tsipras will go down as the guy who divided Greece and Europe without achieving anything positive at all.

I feel bad for the people of the private sector who don't deserve this but in a sadistic sense it's fair to see these pensioners queuing like idiots to get 60 euro. That is the generation that was voting the 2 parties that destroyed Greece with 90% and was involved in all the looting all these years. Just because they grew older doesn't change a single thing. Now they have drowned their kids with debt and force everyone to leave.

Yes, politicians made the deals but it's them who got the politicians they deserved.

/rant off
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  #304  
Old 03.07.2015, 11:11
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

I was planning to drive down, and I still am to be honest. I mean, I don't want to jinx it or something, but hopefully the soviet regime will not lock the borders down
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  #305  
Old 03.07.2015, 11:22
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

I thought of flying but the risk is too great to get stuck there without a bus/train/plane and closed banks.

If it's 50/50, I expect Athens and Thessaloniki to burn down in a similar manner to the December 6th incident. Not a place I would want to be, I advised my family to vote and get as far away as possible from the city.
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  #306  
Old 03.07.2015, 12:02
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

I think Tsipras is not such an idiot. At least he called a referendum. There could have been unearthly revolt if he accepted the bailout as was after his election promises. I think a NO vote is clearly the bravest, and possibly most painful way out. The corrupt status quo needs shaking up. This might not do it, but kicking the can by accepting without a referendum would have just prolonged pain. Was there a capable political alternative in the country that would have actually made sufficient changes to turn Greece around?

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The problem is that an almost 50/50 vote will be divisive for everyone. That idiot Tsipras will go down as the guy who divided Greece and Europe without achieving anything positive at all.

I feel bad for the people of the private sector who don't deserve this but in a sadistic sense it's fair to see these pensioners queuing like idiots to get 60 euro. That is the generation that was voting the 2 parties that destroyed Greece with 90% and was involved in all the looting all these years. Just because they grew older doesn't change a single thing. Now they have drowned their kids with debt and force everyone to leave.

Yes, politicians made the deals but it's them who got the politicians they deserved.

/rant off
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  #307  
Old 03.07.2015, 13:07
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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I think Tsipras is not such an idiot. At least he called a referendum. There could have been unearthly revolt if he accepted the bailout as was after his election promises. I think a NO vote is clearly the bravest, and possibly most painful way out. The corrupt status quo needs shaking up. This might not do it, but kicking the can by accepting without a referendum would have just prolonged pain. Was there a capable political alternative in the country that would have actually made sufficient changes to turn Greece around?
Sorry that I groaned on your post.

No, Tsipras is an idiot and the referendum is the most retard idea ever.

If he had promised a lot of things for the Greek people during the campaign, that he would solve the problems this way or that way, etc., he needs now to stand on his word and HAVE THE BALLS to take a decision he was entrusted to do so.

This referendum has nothing to do with democracy. It's like a doctor saying he/she can cure your knee problem but then right before at the surgery room asking you if you prefer the method A or B.
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  #308  
Old 03.07.2015, 13:20
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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Even those of us with booked tickets for Greece this summer are having second thoughts (and we ARE Greeks too). Nobody wants to get stranded somewhere with no flights/strikes and closed banks and ATMs.

A whole nation under dillusion...hope they will choose the hard way through a YES. Once again, Greeks abroad cannot vote as if they don't matter. Soon half the country will be abroad anyway as there are no jobs and their dream to turn it into a communist utopia might come true.

I fail(ed) to understand why the Greeks voted a coalition into government with a program nobody can put into effect
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  #309  
Old 03.07.2015, 14:20
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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I fail(ed) to understand why the Greeks voted a coalition into government with a program nobody can put into effect
Thanks Capo.

Was there a viable alternative? NO.

The people voted for the "best" course of action. Like bees when they decide to swarm, they are pissed off and know ANYTHING is better than what they have, because sooner or later they're heading to a dead end by staying put in the same rotten old hollow tree that is doomed to fall. No other options were viable, the most crazy, just has an incy wincy chance to succeed, so choose that. Greece can't survive as is in the current EU financial model. Why not vote for something that might smash the model, even if "success" is only 5% likely??? Failing that it might throw up a better deal (it looks like it has already, under the covers). They couldn't vote for a party to end corruption. This guy might actually be part idiot, part genius. He certainly thinks he is a genius. The EU is screwed with Italy and France taking the p***. Germany continually pumping in guilt cash. Even a bit of pseudo democracy, combined with throwing all the pieces in the air, maybe???
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  #310  
Old 03.07.2015, 14:49
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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I think Tsipras is not such an idiot. At least he called a referendum. There could have been unearthly revolt if he accepted the bailout as was after his election promises. I think a NO vote is clearly the bravest, and possibly most painful way out. The corrupt status quo needs shaking up. This might not do it, but kicking the can by accepting without a referendum would have just prolonged pain. Was there a capable political alternative in the country that would have actually made sufficient changes to turn Greece around?
Of course he's no idiot, in the IQ sense.

But he's both a coward and a deluded person, crazy if you will. It's his fricking JOB to decide, that's what he got elected for. He appears to think pushing his countr down bankruptcy lane to be the best course - I can almost hear the demands for humanitary help. In his mind it's always somebody elses fault, never the greeks'.

I had high hopes when Syriza got elected because they appeared to be intent on going after the root causes like corruption, cronyism, lack of clear rules (no, I'm not a militarist, but most people will avoid taxes if they see a fair chance of not being caught and punished). I couldn't have been more wrong.

Unless the greeks themselves want to get a functioning country, and accept the consequences, and make it real, they won't get out of the hole they've dug themselves in. As things stand now, after the haircut (that seems inevitable to me) it's only a matter of time until next time.
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  #311  
Old 03.07.2015, 15:09
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

BBC quotes Tsipras this morning as having said:

"If the 'No' vote wins, and the 'no' is stronger, I assure you, the very next day I will be in Brussels and a deal will be signed."

the dude is completely off his nut.



the referendum is, sadly, a farce and a red herring. there is no "deal" on the table for the Greeks to vote on, all the referendum is going to do is set a potential ceiling on how hard the Greeks are going to get hammered - a yes vote means that Greece's creditors can impose just about whatever conditions they want on a new restructuring proposal, and a no vote means Greece is not going to get a new restructuring proposal.

Greece has never had any leverage in these discussions, and is now standing completely alone on a burning platform and apparently voting on whether or not to accept the only lifeline available to it. in terms of game theory, Greece's tactics have been absurd and utterly self-defeating, and appear to be growing only more so.
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  #312  
Old 03.07.2015, 15:17
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

It seems the Supreme court has to decide if the referendum is legal! They are not allowed in Greece on the topic of fiscal policy!!

This Govt could not organise a piss up in a brewery.
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  #313  
Old 03.07.2015, 15:38
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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Of course he's no idiot, in the IQ sense.

But he's both a coward and a deluded person, crazy if you will. It's his fricking JOB to decide, that's what he got elected for. He appears to think pushing his countr down bankruptcy lane to be the best course - I can almost hear the demands for humanitary help. In his mind it's always somebody elses fault, never the greeks'.

I had high hopes when Syriza got elected because they appeared to be intent on going after the root causes like corruption, cronyism, lack of clear rules (no, I'm not a militarist, but most people will avoid taxes if they see a fair chance of not being caught and punished). I couldn't have been more wrong.

Unless the greeks themselves want to get a functioning country, and accept the consequences, and make it real, they won't get out of the hole they've dug themselves in. As things stand now, after the haircut (that seems inevitable to me) it's only a matter of time until next time.
sure, but he has his own interests to look out for. the EU made no secret of wanting the current (and in the EU, only) radical left government out. so they appear to have put him in a no-win situation of either ending his own political career, or going against the raison d'etre of Syriza and therefore likely ending the party.

the referendum is an attempt to side-step the trap that has been laid for him by the troika.
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  #314  
Old 03.07.2015, 15:59
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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... the EU ... appear to have put him in a no-win situation of either ending his own political career, or going against the raison d'etre of Syriza and therefore likely ending the party.
This week's "deal" would not have been necessary if the Greek government had gotten itself in order and the debt had been repaid as agreed, in more than one previous agreement. That said, Tsipras hasn't been in power that long so it's hard to lay it all at his feet that things were not shored up yet. I'm afraid I don't see a win for anyone here - Greece, Tsipras, the EU, or the IMF.
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Old 03.07.2015, 16:21
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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This week's "deal" would not have been necessary if the Greek government had gotten itself in order and the debt had been repaid as agreed, in more than one previous agreement. That said, Tsipras hasn't been in power that long so it's hard to lay it all at his feet that things were not shored up yet. I'm afraid I don't see a win for anyone here - Greece, Tsipras, the EU, or the IMF.
Repayment is an illusion.
I'm shocked that anybody is actually believing that the money isn't lost already - must be the heat-wave ;-)
Well, most of it is lost.
Even if Greece was a company, I doubt its assets would cover the amount of debt they've accumulated.
Politicians have to acknowledge that fact and communicate it to their voters.
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Old 03.07.2015, 17:19
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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Thanks Capo.

Was there a viable alternative? NO.
There was a viable option - stay the course. Do you actually realise that when the voted in the socialist students, the country was actually showing signs of a turn around? Instead of building on that the newly elected government reversed the measures under way and sent the economy careering backwards into recession again.

In addition to everything else, should they now vote no next Sunday, they will walk away from over 20b in structural funding, 'free money' that would have helped improve their country's infrastructure and so on.
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Old 03.07.2015, 17:29
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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I fail(ed) to understand why the Greeks voted a coalition into government with a program nobody can put into effect

I fail(ed) to understand why the world could let it happen that it's that German trash again who managed to be the one in charge to get its sh**t together, for years.
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/griechenland-pressestimmen-aus-usa-italien-frankreich-a-1041100.html#ref=veeseoartikel

But at least their is some hope, as it seems not everybody is part of that gleichgeschaltete public opinion in that place:
http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/gesellschaft/berichterstattung-zu-griechenland-dschungelcamp-der-medien-kolumne-a-1042001.html

Anyway, they got it all screwed, but this again is a good old German tradition.
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/griechenland-essay-von-barry-eichengreen-a-1041875.html





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  #318  
Old 03.07.2015, 21:03
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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There was a viable option - stay the course. Do you actually realise that when the voted in the socialist students, the country was actually showing signs of a turn around? Instead of building on that the newly elected government reversed the measures under way and sent the economy careering backwards into recession again.
Precisely. The country was growing again - fastest growth in EU in Q4 in fact but the very notion of not having to pay taxes immediately sent the government coffers into a death spiral.
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  #319  
Old 04.07.2015, 06:41
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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I fail(ed) to understand why the world could let it happen that it's that German trash again who managed to be the one in charge to get its sh**t together, for years.
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/griechenland-pressestimmen-aus-usa-italien-frankreich-a-1041100.html#ref=veeseoartikel

But at least their is some hope, as it seems not everybody is part of that gleichgeschaltete public opinion in that place:
http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/gesellschaft/berichterstattung-zu-griechenland-dschungelcamp-der-medien-kolumne-a-1042001.html

Anyway, they got it all screwed, but this again is a good old German tradition.
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/griechenland-essay-von-barry-eichengreen-a-1041875.html
When, oh when, will Greece and it's criminal leaders wake up and thank the Germans for their generosity. Nobody else was prepared to lend them a cent, and yet Merkel's government lent them billions at 5% interest. I am quite sure the Germans will not be lending them any more cash, their attitude has changed after all the insults they received!

Russia has the funds, and until recently China & the USA. So why didn't any other country rush in and meet the demand?
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Old 04.07.2015, 07:01
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

...and isn't it amazing how the situation has changed in 9 months?

http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/soz...-a-993298.html

...or is that the fault of the Germans as well?
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