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Old 06.05.2011, 19:43
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Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

According to latest news there are discussions to have greece leaving the euro zone.
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Old 06.05.2011, 19:56
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Re: Greece to leave euro zone (Spiegel Online)

English- http://www.spiegel.de/international/...761201,00.html
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Old 06.05.2011, 20:00
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Re: Greece to leave euro zone (Spiegel Online)

According to German Finance Ministry estimates, the currency (Euro) could lose as much as 50 percent of its value, leading to a drastic increase in Greek national debt. CHF CHF ching ching good currency to have then? I doubt Greece would leave though.
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Old 06.05.2011, 20:00
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Re: Greece to leave euro zone (Spiegel Online)

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According to German Finance Ministry estimates, the currency (Euro) could lose as much as 50 percent of its value, leading to a drastic increase in Greek national debt.
CHF CHF ching ching good currency to have then? I doubt Greece would leave though.
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Old 06.05.2011, 20:23
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Re: Greece to leave euro zone (Spiegel Online)

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According to German Finance Ministry estimates, the currency (Euro) could lose as much as 50 percent of its value, leading to a drastic increase in Greek national debt. CHF CHF ching ching good currency to have then? I doubt Greece would leave though.
I understood that in the sense that the Greek currency could lose 50% of its value.
Regardless - the idea behind this move is clearly to "warm" people up to what is called the "transfer union", where the rich states make direct contributions to the poor (without any direct or indirect reward).
A system not unlike what we have in Germany.
Needless to say it's popular with the receiving states and not so popular with the states that have to pay (of which there are only 3).
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Old 06.05.2011, 22:10
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

I just got back from holiday in Greece. I could not believe what a wreck it was. I found it to be dirty and run down (abandoned buildings and burned out buildings are commonplace). The general attitude is "can't do" and morale seems low. It seems that the problems there are bigger than just financial. I'm interested to know more about Greece. Certainly cutting them loose to decay further into ruin is not the answer. But being there I was shocked that I was in Europe. It did not feel first world. How does a country with such apparent lack of pride and initiative rebuild?
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Old 06.05.2011, 22:13
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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I just got back from holiday in Greece. I could not believe what a wreck it was. I found it to be dirty and run down (abandoned buildings and burned out buildings are commonplace). The general attitude is "can't do" and morale seems low. It seems that the problems there are bigger than just financial. I'm interested to know more about Greece. Certainly cutting them loose to decay further into ruin is not the answer. But being there I was shocked that I was in Europe. It did not feel first world. How does a country with such apparent lack of pride and initiative rebuild?
The problem is never just financial, finances are just a reflection of the workforce. There are seldom real lines drawn across the globe - Greece is no closer to it's neighbours to the North and West than it is to it's neighbours in the East and South, despite what it would like others to believe.
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Old 06.05.2011, 22:59
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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I just got back from holiday in Greece. I could not believe what a wreck it was. I found it to be dirty and run down (abandoned buildings and burned out buildings are commonplace). The general attitude is "can't do" and morale seems low. It seems that the problems there are bigger than just financial. I'm interested to know more about Greece. Certainly cutting them loose to decay further into ruin is not the answer.
These are the possibilities:
- stay in Euro-zone -> lower the wages (which are already low) to 3rd-world level
- stay in Euro-zone -> increase productivity (50% of the level of Germany, NL is even more productive...)
- stay in Euro-zone -> Europe (well, Germany) pays the bills -> doesn't solve the above problems. A debt-relief will lead to a massive capital flight. Greek bonds will only sell with a massive premium.
- leave Euro-zone (as the article says, it's unclear if it's even possible) -> currency will plummet, making Greek goods cheaper on the world-market.
-> side effect: no sane investor will put any money in Greek loans, imported goods will get much pricier (oil, raw-materials)
- most other pseudo-options will probably also not work in real-life

Result: Greece is doomed. Like the south of Italy, there's no hope and no choice for the rest of Europe but to foot the bill.
Obviously, this isn't good for the self-esteem of the Greek people.
I am very sorry.

...and all this doesn't take into account the looming complete devaluation of the US-dollar.
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Old 07.05.2011, 13:12
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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I just got back from holiday in Greece. I could not believe what a wreck it was. I found it to be dirty and run down (abandoned buildings and burned out buildings are commonplace). The general attitude is "can't do" and morale seems low. It seems that the problems there are bigger than just financial. I'm interested to know more about Greece. Certainly cutting them loose to decay further into ruin is not the answer. But being there I was shocked that I was in Europe. It did not feel first world. How does a country with such apparent lack of pride and initiative rebuild?
Where in Greece have you been? Burned out buildings are commonplace?
Many of the problems maybe weren't so obvious, like the difficult job situation for under 30s, but have been around for years.
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Old 07.05.2011, 14:27
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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I just got back from holiday in Greece. I could not believe what a wreck it was. I found it to be dirty and run down (abandoned buildings and burned out buildings are commonplace). The general attitude is "can't do" and morale seems low. It seems that the problems there are bigger than just financial. I'm interested to know more about Greece. Certainly cutting them loose to decay further into ruin is not the answer. But being there I was shocked that I was in Europe. It did not feel first world. How does a country with such apparent lack of pride and initiative rebuild?

I go to Greece at least twice per year and I never noticed burned out buildings and "can't do" attitude (except in the public sector but this is everywhere). At least as a tourist you get a much better treatment there comparing to Italy or France.
I really don't know which place you visited in Greece (if it was Greece) but if I were you I will probably never go to the same travel agent again
......and BTW Greece is not leaving the eurozone that will be against Germany, France, etc that sell stuff to Greece
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Old 07.05.2011, 15:15
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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I just got back from holiday in Greece. I could not believe what a wreck it was. I found it to be dirty and run down (abandoned buildings and burned out buildings are commonplace). The general attitude is "can't do" and morale seems low. It seems that the problems there are bigger than just financial. I'm interested to know more about Greece. Certainly cutting them loose to decay further into ruin is not the answer. But being there I was shocked that I was in Europe. It did not feel first world. How does a country with such apparent lack of pride and initiative rebuild?
Can you tell us which part of Greece you visited?
Maybe you were at the "Captain Correli's Mandolin" filming location
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Old 11.05.2011, 12:18
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

These guys really have some face:
Greece Hit by General Strike
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Old 11.05.2011, 13:21
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

leaving the euro-zone is indeed one of the scenarios and its not the worst one (according analysts)

anyway its sad that my country has reached this stage but it was the result of series of bad politics for the last 40 years

i believe this is an era which will end in the next 5 to 10 years and we will start rising again

you good people support us with vacations and visiting: its still worth it! and dont take any stupid action that harms tourism! if you insist they come into place.

cheers
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Old 11.05.2011, 14:09
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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leaving the euro-zone is indeed one of the scenarios and its not the worst one (according analysts)
It only makes sense, if a "haircut" of the debt comes into place (50% is probably not too low).
Otherwise, as the debt will still be in Euro-currency, the amount will explode in New-Drachme or whatever it will be called.
That new Greek currency would be the equivalent of Monopoly-money: nobody would accept it. Probably not even in Greece itself.

There is no way Greece is going to be able to pay back all the money it owns other countries/banks/people. Not in a thousand years.
Politicians should accept this (publicly) and work on realistic solutions.

But the Greek people should nevertheless prepare for a long period of austerity. There's not going to be a happy end in the near future.
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Old 11.05.2011, 14:49
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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It only makes sense, if a "haircut" of the debt comes into place (50% is probably not too low).
Otherwise, as the debt will still be in Euro-currency, the amount will explode in New-Drachme or whatever it will be called.
That new Greek currency would be the equivalent of Monopoly-money: nobody would accept it. Probably not even in Greece itself.

There is no way Greece is going to be able to pay back all the money it owns other countries/banks/people. Not in a thousand years.
Politicians should accept this (publicly) and work on realistic solutions.

But the Greek people should nevertheless prepare for a long period of austerity. There's not going to be a happy end in the near future.
Good points
The "leave euro zone" is a good threat strategy to pressure the richer guys/countries to support Greece.
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Old 11.05.2011, 15:11
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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Good points
The "leave euro zone" is a good threat strategy to pressure the richer guys/countries to support Greece.
Huh? I think the opposite is true based on Rainers valid points: "Tell your people the truth and finally act accordingly or we kick you out of the Euro" seems a perfect threat towards the Greek government from the EU side...
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Old 11.05.2011, 15:42
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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"These neoliberal and barbarous policies, which are driving workers and society into poverty for the benefit of creditors and bankers, are taking us back to the last century,"
You wish!
Quote:
Greek press reports suggest the country's budget deficit in 1999 was 3.38%.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4012869.stm
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Old 11.05.2011, 16:01
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

these governments they don't mind the procrastination
They say "We'll kill them off, take their land and go there for vacation"
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Old 11.05.2011, 16:06
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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Huh? I think the opposite is true based on Rainers valid points: "Tell your people the truth and finally act accordingly or we kick you out of the Euro" seems a perfect threat towards the Greek government from the EU side...
Yes and no.
Politicians (esp. in Germany) are never tired of proclaiming and swearing that no German tax-payer money will be used to bail out "lazy" Greek squanderers.
That charade has to stop.
A lot of the debt is owed to German banks that are either state-owned ("Landesbanken") or have received direct helps (Commerz-Bank).
A haircut would affect them negatively.
The German taxpayer will foot the bill anyway.

Greece is not North Korea. You can't put the people as a whole on a 1500 calories (or less http://mobile.reuters.com/article/De...73O0W620110425 ) diet and hope to "muddle through", somehow.
That just doesn't work in a democracy.
But there's always an election somewhere in Europe or Germany - and no politician wants to be the one who bailed out Greece with his voters' money....
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Old 11.05.2011, 18:07
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

greece is royally ed. and for once, the banks are not to blame (well, not as much as in other countries). they just invested in government bonds and when the govt goes pop, it will take the banks down with them.

there's no way out and no will/commitment to get out of the mess.
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