Nope, again a total misunderstanding of the importance of freedom. We don't know what they want. The Saudi SS troopers don't know what they want. The Saudi "Royal" Family doesn't know what they want. If you don't allow someone to speak, to travel, to vote then you don't know what they want. And if you're not interested in seeing someone's face, then you don't care what they want.

This isn't rocket science, and I've travelled through almost every country in the middle east including Iran (IMO, totally different) and Saudi - Saudi is a prison for women.

I think what the guy said that it's a cultural thing there-

We complain about their lack of rights (driving, etc...) but we don't comment on those "special mall" they can go, etc...

Also, I haven't heard complain towards Muslims/Islam so far (Saoudi Arabia is predominantly Muslim) : Although excuse me if I am wrong but the women have less rights there.

So when I observe this topic I see some people attacking another because he described how their culture is. No one dare to mention islam/muslims although that's the reason why they have so little rights.

Are you all scared?


I'm not defending the situation in Saoudi Arabia. Or the guy who just described their situation. But don't pick the wrong target!

I've never visited Saudi but you have.

What are these positives that you mention?

Chateau Habibi. Firstly, thanks for giving us your opinion, I can't recall a single Saudi replying on one of these types of threads. I hope you take the opportunity to listen to us, and hopefully change some of these archaic traditions and ideas that men in SA (and other places) learn and believe.
My muslim ex-husband used to seriously believe that I was unable to make any good decissions for myself. He also seriously believed that I had no control over myself when speaking or socializing with members of the opposite sex. Don't worry, I "educated" him!
I would hate to live in your land under the laws that rule the women. I'd be stoned in no time, and believe me, I'm not an evil or bad person.
Of course Saudi women can't tell the men how much they hate how they live, and lots of them have nothing to compare it to so they really don't know that life could be different for them.
Come to Europe, meet some of our strong women and see what we are capable of. Although it is my fear that Saudi men know exactly how strong and capable women can be, and therefore keep them oppressed.
Francine said it best when she said...

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Shark wisdom: A swimmer in the sea is worth ten on the beach.

There aren't any. Well there are, in the same way as weight loss is a positive of having late stage metastatic lung cancer. Must stop with these analogies

So you make a good point, and let me answer. Saudi Arabia is an artificial country. Like many in the region? True, but even more fake. Just over 200 years ago, a evil little cleric with strange ideas called Al-Wahab got together with a marauding, violent band of thugs lead by ibn Saud, and conquered a giant tract of nothingness in Arabia (it took them 150 or so years). Then they found oil, and cemented their claim. The very idea of such a "country" is crazy, there is no national identity. Wahabi Islam is new, and only practised in Saudi Arabia, and I'm guessing it's only so popular there because if you aren't into it, you beaten publicly by roving gangs of religious police with nightsticks.

Saudi Arabia is not Islam. When a group of Indian pilgrims approached Mecca on the haaj beating their traditional drums, having walked from India over the course of months, they were turned away from Mecca because apparently music is haram. This is not Islam, this is a cult that gets to call itself Islam because it has a lot of oil and a lot of religious police.

There are no positives in Saudia, and they can keep the "family" shisha bars and "family" malls. Sorry to Godwinise the thread so early but the Jews had "special places" they could go in 1930s Germany too.

Nope, again a total misunderstanding of the importance of getting the facts right. Your opinions aren't facts at all. Who are these Saudi SS troopers?

"And if you're not interested in seeing someone's face, then you don't care what they want." - This is wrong, women can show their faces but not in public.

Frankly, I'm not an apologist for the Saudi regime or society because I fully recognize their respective faults but you need to get your facts right.

"Saudi Arabia is an artificial country."

So what. By your definition most countries in the world are "artificial". What's a "natural" country?

Yeah I know it's a shithole, I worked oil and gas.


But it's also cultural there- yeah under repression whatever. Not nice but it's like that now.

Ok they had special places in Germany for jews, but they also have special places in Switzerland for women parking: to keep them safe, etc...

So some "special places" are not that bad-


Ok they're not muslim? so whatever rule they follow, it seems similar.

That's what HE said.

I have to agree with a lot of what our Saudi friend writes here. There is a huge amount of misrepresentation of the middle east in western media, especially over the past 10 years. If I had never been there I would be quite scared of most of the places going on what I read. In reality the media tend to pick on a few, albeit spectacularly bad, examples and fail to provide any context as to just how commonplace such incidences are.

The reality is the mid-east, including Saudi, is full of friendly people, some of the most hospitable in the world. It is also an incredibly safe place to be with regard to violence and robberies (but not in terms of traffic accidents!) How men and women interact there is no business of ours whatsoever. When I was invited into Arab people's homes I accepted I would not be shaking hands with or kiss-greeting the womenfolk and neither I nor they had any problem with that.

Consider for a moment how it must appear in reverse. I don't think Katie Price/Lyndsey Lohan/Britney Spears/Paris Hilton et al. are examples that Saudi women should aspire to. Also remember Switzerland was the last western republic to grant women's suffrage where women have only been allowed to vote in federal elections since 1971.

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The Mutaween buddy...the Mutaween



Is this a joke? You are an apologist. How about we stop you from showing your face in public and see how you like it?

This as NOTHING to do with being muslim. You try to bring the subject on something who doesn't even belongs in this topic. To treat women like that on put it on the religion is plain coward and lazy. You treat your women this way because you want to, not because the religion told you to. And beside, Islam don't say to treat women this way, otherwise you have a big bunch of muslim countries and its population who will burn to hell...

I am muslim, I am free to speak, to drive, to do what ever I want. I wear bikinis, decoltés and sexy outfits. I am no shame of myself or for others.

My husband is muslim and so many of my friends are muslims too. None of them are acting in a ''non-muslim'' way which, by the way, isn't much different of those not muslim. Those who keeps talking of committing sins and all those non-sense are just lacking of education.

Don't bring this topic to a debate that isn't one. We are talking about women's right in a country. Not women's right in Islam. Because on this one, you won't have strong points to stand on.

Islam isn't the problem, it is the way people are believing it, using it or abusing it.

Like any other religion.

Sorry, I don't know what you're talking about

Sorry sunshine, but it's my business. You don't get to run a country any way you choose. You don't get to persecute or kill your population. You don't get to practise FGM, or stop school girls from leaving a burning building because they're not properly attired. I lived in and love the middle east, but Saudi Arabia isn't the middle east and isn't Islam. It's a perversion and bless America (even if they are oil motivated) for getting their hands dirty in the darkest corners of the world. They've got a base there now, but hopefully one day they'll turn around and wipe it off the face of the world.

You should have said Mutaween first time round, you weren't clear at all.

You may be a mod but you're pathetic. I merely pointed out one of your factual errors and you call me an apologist for what goes on in Saudi

Apologies - Mutaween. Clear now?

I am pretty pathetic it's true.

However saying "yeah but it's just in public that they can't show their faces" is an apologist remark. Women have little to no freedom in Saudi Arabia. Them liking it is besides the point (because how would anyone know anyway), and if you think being free is being able to uncover your face at home then quite frankly you have no grip on reality. Women are prisoners in Saudi Arabia. Have you evidence to the contrary (besides everyone being really friendly and Jiddah having a thriving cafe culture and simple the most marvellous shisha)?

Also coming from a country like France, I would feel ashame to critic Saoudi Arabia.
Ok their "crimes"/ behavior toward women is much worse but still...

Politicians who abuse expenses (like in UK)
Politicians who traffic money from Lybia, etc... then they attack them
Politicians who use public money to save the bank and yet don't get any return to the citizens
Politicians who abuse their power to defend old groups of crooks (medias, hadopi etc...).
Politician who use public money to give to Lybia's rebels. Wft?
...

The list would be long.

just in case it wasnt patently obvious before

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Which they are doing in Saoudi Arabia.

Do you think they ban women's rights in the name of Mickey Mouse?

I'm not saying it's because of Islam but related to (their abuse of it)

the point bing made is the one I also made earlier, that the country is run and ruled by men, who decide arbitarily what is and is not good, allowed or not allowed for women. This cannot be considered a fully equal way to run a country.

I am reminded of a bbc news report during the balkans war when one of the evil serb generals was outside a prison camp with starving prisoners for all to see inside the barbed wire and he rold reporters they were like that because it was ramadan and they were fasting - it was their choice he said so you should not poke your nose in. Although far less extreme the principle point is the same: the defence given against the lack of women's rights in these countries is that we are always sounding off as if we know whats best for them, when no one asks the women themselves. The poor downtrodden women however are unable to make their case because of their position within society.

Please point me to an active political party in Saudi Arabia with a significant female representation.