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Old 30.05.2011, 14:51
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Re: Princess Di death Cannes film documentary.

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The British monarchy has no executive power, and so offers no threat to democracy. If we were designing a modern nation state from scratch now, it wouldn't include a monarchy (nor a BBC, probably), but it's been around for a thousand years, and isn't easy to get rid of -- eveni if we wanted to. It's part of the heritage of the nation, and a tremendous tourist attraction.

In any case, all democracies are flawed, and this certainly includes the US, where influence is bought and sold without there seeming to be any sense of popular outrage.
Maybe there is no outrage for the reason you said or people who live in the system no more than you who are on another continent? Maybe?

In any case I think the idea of saying "that's the way we have always done it" is not a good argument, that is exactly the argument Swiss make that seem to infuriate the Brits living here so much.

I'm aware the Royal family have no real power, but:

1) they are eat tax dollars for no apparent reason, but maybe they bring in more tourist dollars than they take out of the system? I wonder how much of a difference there would be if you eliminated the people and still had all those pretty buildings? People flock half way around the globe just to see empty pretty buildings. I know, I've been to Akgor Wat!

2) The idea of a royal family means everyone is not equal. Some are better and superior to others due to breeding, although they demonstrate no superior personal quality of their own account? for example, one might argue Einstein was a superior human being. But Einstein did something to deserve that. Einstein was not just "born".

I have heard Brits on this board talk constantly about social class, what it means, blah blah blah...how Switzerland doesn't really have much of a class system, what that means blah blah blah, but I have never heard anyone mention the idea that maybe the idea that social class is defined by law for some in the UK, does not exactly help the demise of entrenched classicism.

3) I always felt personally if you are going to have a king and a royal family, fine. Do what the ancient Germanics did...elect your king. Then again, I guess that is called a President, and the UK and France have that.

4) The only reason you don't get rid of the Royal family is because people are complacent, when in your words "without there seeming to be any sense of popular outrage". Touche 'mate'


Anyway, I'm just b----ing, don't take me too seriously...back to "WHO KILLED DIANA"? I guess the same people who killed Kennedy, Martin Luther King, Gandhi, etc. Also, don't think I'm picking on Brits specifically, there are Swedes, Dutch, Japanese, etc.
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Old 30.05.2011, 15:04
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Re: Princess Di death Cannes film documentary.

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I'm aware the Royal family have no real power, but:

1) they are eat tax dollars for no apparent reason, but maybe they bring in more tourist dollars than they take out of the system? I wonder how much of a difference there would be if you eliminated the people and still had all those pretty buildings? People flock half way around the globe just to see empty pretty buildings. I know, I've been to Akgor Wat!
maybe you should read up before you post

http://www.moneyweek.com/news-and-ch...ly-costs-53518

costs each uk citizen 63p per year, in real terms costs the uk £180m per year provides £236m per year from the crown estates revenue, then the unquantifiable income from tourists and trade.

so the uk actually make out of the deal
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Old 30.05.2011, 15:40
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Re: Princess Di death Cannes film documentary.

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maybe you should read up before you post

http://www.moneyweek.com/news-and-ch...ly-costs-53518

costs each uk citizen 63p per year, in real terms costs the uk £180m per year provides £236m per year from the crown estates revenue, then the unquantifiable income from tourists and trade.

so the uk actually make out of the deal
Like i said I would not attribute all the tourism revenue to the Royal family...people spend big money to see completely empty palaces all around Europe, but especially right across the Channel in France.

Still, it seems like a good economic deal.

Okay scratch 1 argument, 3 left to go.
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Old 30.05.2011, 16:36
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Re: Princess Di death Cannes film documentary.

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Maybe there is no outrage for the reason you said or people who live in the system no more than you who are on another continent? Maybe?

In any case I think the idea of saying "that's the way we have always done it" is not a good argument, that is exactly the argument Swiss make that seem to infuriate the Brits living here so much.

I'm aware the Royal family have no real power, but:

1) they are eat tax dollars for no apparent reason, but maybe they bring in more tourist dollars than they take out of the system? I wonder how much of a difference there would be if you eliminated the people and still had all those pretty buildings? People flock half way around the globe just to see empty pretty buildings. I know, I've been to Akgor Wat!

2) The idea of a royal family means everyone is not equal. Some are better and superior to others due to breeding, although they demonstrate no superior personal quality of their own account? for example, one might argue Einstein was a superior human being. But Einstein did something to deserve that. Einstein was not just "born".

I have heard Brits on this board talk constantly about social class, what it means, blah blah blah...how Switzerland doesn't really have much of a class system, what that means blah blah blah, but I have never heard anyone mention the idea that maybe the idea that social class is defined by law for some in the UK, does not exactly help the demise of entrenched classicism.

3) I always felt personally if you are going to have a king and a royal family, fine. Do what the ancient Germanics did...elect your king. Then again, I guess that is called a President, and the UK and France have that.

4) The only reason you don't get rid of the Royal family is because people are complacent, when in your words "without there seeming to be any sense of popular outrage". Touche 'mate'


Anyway, I'm just b----ing, don't take me too seriously...back to "WHO KILLED DIANA"? I guess the same people who killed Kennedy, Martin Luther King, Gandhi, etc. Also, don't think I'm picking on Brits specifically, there are Swedes, Dutch, Japanese, etc.

I have to take it from the above pearls of wisdom you've just spewed forth that you are a new-comer to British politics, history, economics, and dare I say it, the English language itself?

Firstly absolutely no 'tax dollars' are eaten up, we don't have dollars we have pounds, we also don't have a president, I have no idea where you got that morsel of phony information from. Plus removing the monarchy means instituting a presidency, which in actual fact might well waste more money than keeping the Royals, and who would be president? Tony B. Liar? That might actually be the worst possible out-come.

Your argument on institutionalised elitism seems to be confused, you seem to champion equality, but on the other hand indicate that 'some animals are more equal than others', two legs good, four legs bad?

Maybe keep your internet assembled musings on things you have little to no understanding of for the CNN 'have your say' call in.
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Old 30.05.2011, 16:40
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Re: Princess Di death Cannes film documentary.

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I think you mean ties to the Nazi Party in Germany. Prince Phillip has admitted this already in an interview.
I read this list of Prince Philip's xenophobic ramblings today:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...s-2290148.html
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Old 30.05.2011, 17:09
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Re: Princess Di death Cannes film documentary.

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maybe you should read up before you post

http://www.moneyweek.com/news-and-ch...ly-costs-53518

costs each uk citizen 63p per year, in real terms costs the uk £180m per year provides £236m per year from the crown estates revenue, then the unquantifiable income from tourists and trade.

so the uk actually make out of the deal
I guess it all depends in how you look at it
http://www.republic.org.uk/What%20we...rism/index.php

http://www.republic.org.uk/What%20we...nces/index.php
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Old 30.05.2011, 17:22
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Re: Princess Di death Cannes film documentary.

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I have to take it from the above pearls of wisdom you've just spewed forth that you are a new-comer to British politics, history, economics, and dare I say it, the English language itself?

Firstly absolutely no 'tax dollars' are eaten up, we don't have dollars we have pounds, we also don't have a president, I have no idea where you got that morsel of phony information from. Plus removing the monarchy means instituting a presidency, which in actual fact might well waste more money than keeping the Royals, and who would be president? Tony B. Liar? That might actually be the worst possible out-come.

Your argument on institutionalised elitism seems to be confused, you seem to champion equality, but on the other hand indicate that 'some animals are more equal than others', two legs good, four legs bad?

Maybe keep your internet assembled musings on things you have little to no understanding of for the CNN 'have your say' call in.
JonnyLaRock, defender of the Crown. Why would it necessarily have to be Tony Blair, couldn't the office of Presidency be an elected office?
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Old 30.05.2011, 17:24
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Re: Princess Di death Cannes film documentary.

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This is why you have a non-elected power in Government.
How does that provide stability in a democracy?
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Old 30.05.2011, 17:31
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Re: Princess Di death Cannes film documentary.

Hmm, "republic.org.uk".

I wonder what sort of balanced assessment I'll find if I click one of those links?

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Old 30.05.2011, 17:43
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Re: Princess Di death Cannes film documentary.

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Hmm, "republic.org.uk".

I wonder what sort of balanced assessment I'll find if I click one of those links?

I'm sure just as balanced as one supporting the monarchy. So you disagree with all the points they make?
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Old 30.05.2011, 17:52
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Re: Princess Di death Cannes film documentary.

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Like i said I would not attribute all the tourism revenue to the Royal family...people spend big money to see completely empty palaces all around Europe, but especially right across the Channel in France.

Still, it seems like a good economic deal.

Okay scratch 1 argument, 3 left to go.
No. 4 is an easy one to deal with (though I wasn't completely sure what the second half of it meant):-

"4) The only reason you don't get rid of the Royal family is because people are complacent, when in your words "without there seeming to be any sense of popular outrage". Touche 'mate'!"

Where's your evidence for this? I'll save you the trouble -- there is no evidence.

People are not complacent at all. There is a vocal anti-monarchy lobby in the UK, and they get as much publicity as they want, which I'm sure you'll agree is commendably democratic. Their problem is not that the majority is complacent. Their problem is that constant, exhaustive surveys find that a majority of people are actually in favour of the monarchy. The recent royal wedding saw more than a million people on the streets of London to watch the parade, and there were hundreds, thousands even, of street parties up and down the country.

As long as they have no real power, most Brits are happy to rake in the financial benefits of the monarchy, and we also like the sense of cultural continuity it gives the country.

It's our history. We like it, just like most of your compatriates, in my experience.
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Old 30.05.2011, 17:58
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Re: Princess Di death Cannes film documentary.

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I have to take it from the above pearls of wisdom you've just spewed forth that you are a new-comer to British politics, history, economics, and dare I say it, the English language itself?

Firstly absolutely no 'tax dollars' are eaten up, we don't have dollars we have pounds, we also don't have a president, I have no idea where you got that morsel of phony information from. Plus removing the monarchy means instituting a presidency, which in actual fact might well waste more money than keeping the Royals, and who would be president? Tony B. Liar? That might actually be the worst possible out-come.

Your argument on institutionalised elitism seems to be confused, you seem to champion equality, but on the other hand indicate that 'some animals are more equal than others', two legs good, four legs bad?

Maybe keep your internet assembled musings on things you have little to no understanding of for the CNN 'have your say' call in.
sigh

1) My oversight concerning "dollars and pounds sterling"... I know what currency you have.

2)I never said removing the monarchy had to result in a president, it could still be a parliamentary system, but I was specifically comparing an elected monarch to a president. "Elected" meaning direct election, not elected by parliament.

3) Insults are not necessary, i did not insult you.

4) I didn't say anything about equality, I said meritocracy. You are familiary with the word are you not? In a meritocracy some folks are "better" than others, but it is due to their utility in society. And you mentioned "native language" right?

5) I don't read CNN. I read NY Times, BBC, and Financial Times most days.

Can we stop with the weak attempt to insult and stereotypes...just drop the nationalist crap completely.

Thanks.
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Old 30.05.2011, 18:05
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Re: Princess Di death Cannes film documentary.

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I'm sure just as balanced as one supporting the monarchy. So you disagree with all the points they make?
I looked at the first link. I agree with them that tourism would continue to flourish if the monarchy was abolished, but I disagree that tourism would increase. I see no evidence for that. It's true that empty buildings would still attract tourists, but equally, think of the many thousands who flock to see the changing of the guard and the trooping of the colour and so on. For many tourists. it's this live history show going on around them that makes it a real spectacle.

Regarding your general point, of course I am not likely to find a balanced assessment on a pro-monarchy website. Both are going to be heavily biased, and equally pointless if seeking the truth.
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Old 30.05.2011, 18:08
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Re: Princess Di death Cannes film documentary.

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She still has many well wishers
What
Do they think she's having a little lie down or something?
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Old 30.05.2011, 18:13
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Re: Princess Di death Cannes film documentary.

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I looked at the first link. I agree with them that tourism would continue to flourish if the monarchy was abolished, but I disagree that tourism would increase. I see no evidence for that. It's true that empty buildings would still attract tourists, but equally, think of the many thousands who flock to see the changing of the guard and the trooping of the colour and so on. For many tourists. it's this live history show going on around them that makes it a real spectacle.

Regarding your general point, of course I am not likely to find a balanced assessment on a pro-monarchy website. Both are going to be heavily biased, and equally pointless if seeking the truth.
True that, but you could still have all that, the Queen isn't normally in the palace when it's open for a short time each year. My solution would be to keep the monarchy, but remove it completely from any part of the government. Yes, technically the monarch has little power, but the royals have no accountabilty. Let them go private,and I bet they would bring in even more pounds Sterling for the government. But as T. Paine once said "'a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong gives it a superficial appearance of being right"

Last edited by rfk; 30.05.2011 at 18:47. Reason: corrected by a know it all
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Old 30.05.2011, 18:23
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Re: Princess Di death Cannes film documentary.

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True that, but you could still have all that, the Queen isn't normally in the palace when it's open for a short time each year. My solution would be to keep the monarchy, but remove it completely from any part of the government. Yes, technically the monarch has little power, but the royals have no accountabilty. Let them go private,and I bet they would bring in even more tax dollars for the government. But as T. Paine once said "'a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong gives it a superficial appearance of being right"
Shame they won't be able to spend them - maybe I've been out of the UK for too long but the last time I was there, they were still operating in pounds Sterling.
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Old 30.05.2011, 18:42
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Re: Princess Di death Cannes film documentary.

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Shame they won't be able to spend them - maybe I've been out of the UK for too long but the last time I was there, they were still operating in pounds Sterling.
Fine,I instinctively wrote dollars, my bad. But besides that any other pearls of wisdom.
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Old 30.05.2011, 18:45
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Re: Princess Di death Cannes film documentary.

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sigh

1) My oversight concerning "dollars and pounds sterling"... I know what currency you have.

2)I never said removing the monarchy had to result in a president, it could still be a parliamentary system, but I was specifically comparing an elected monarch to a president. "Elected" meaning direct election, not elected by parliament.

3) Insults are not necessary, i did not insult you.

4) I didn't say anything about equality, I said meritocracy. You are familiary with the word are you not? In a meritocracy some folks are "better" than others, but it is due to their utility in society. And you mentioned "native language" right?

5) I don't read CNN. I read NY Times, BBC, and Financial Times most days.

Can we stop with the weak attempt to insult and stereotypes...just drop the nationalist crap completely.

Thanks.
Careful. They'll pick up on minute mistakes having little to do with the argument and zoom in on that. Even if we acknowledge it.
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Old 30.05.2011, 18:48
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Re: Princess Di death Cannes film documentary.

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I read this list of Prince Philip's xenophobic ramblings today:

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/ninety-gaffes-in-ninety-years-2290148.html

ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha...bloody genius. My respect for him as just increased, he is great at put downs.

. "Get me a beer. I don't care what kind it is, just get me a beer!" On being offered the finest Italian wines by PM Giuliano Amato at a dinner in Rome in 2000.

"If it has four legs and it is not a chair, if it has got two wings and it flies but is not an aeroplane and if it swims and it is not a submarine, the Cantonese will eat it." Said to a World Wildlife Fund meeting in 1986.

And my favourite
"Damn fool question!" To BBC journalist Caroline Wyatt at a banquet at the Elysée Palace after she asked Queen Elizabeth if she was enjoying her stay in Paris in 2006.

Also do a search on the forum, the Royal Family thing has come up a lot.
They act as a balance to the dictatorship that is Parliament. Democracy doesn't exist by the way.
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Old 30.05.2011, 18:48
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Re: Princess Di death Cannes film documentary.

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No. 4 is an easy one to deal with (though I wasn't completely sure what the second half of it meant):-

"4) The only reason you don't get rid of the Royal family is because people are complacent, when in your words "without there seeming to be any sense of popular outrage". Touche 'mate'!"

Where's your evidence for this? I'll save you the trouble -- there is no evidence.

People are not complacent at all. There is a vocal anti-monarchy lobby in the UK, and they get as much publicity as they want, which I'm sure you'll agree is commendably democratic. Their problem is not that the majority is complacent. Their problem is that constant, exhaustive surveys find that a majority of people are actually in favour of the monarchy. The recent royal wedding saw more than a million people on the streets of London to watch the parade, and there were hundreds, thousands even, of street parties up and down the country.

As long as they have no real power, most Brits are happy to rake in the financial benefits of the monarchy, and we also like the sense of cultural continuity it gives the country.

It's our history. We like it, just like most of your compatriates, in my experience.
Most of my compatriots like what? If you are saying your monarchy then please show me a poll showing that.

In any case you are right, it is "your history" and history and tradition definitely don't have to be rational, America has a lot of stupid traditions, such as 'voting on the first Tuesday in November". Summer break from school, and I can go on.

I am sure some Americans would agree with you as far as the "cultural continuity stuff", but I'm one for utility. If it no longer makes sense, then what's the point? I'm sure there are many many other things about being British that can be promoted...but hey that's me.

Have at it...
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