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  #21  
Old 31.05.2011, 14:19
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Re: Women Victimized in Revolutions: a Tahrir Square Virginity Test Experience

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Well only if they ban religion, as we all know bad people do bad things, religion is the only thing that makes otherwise good people do bad things.
How would go about banning it? You can't ban religion any more than you can "ban" any other illogical beliefs, be it astrology, poltegeists, or space aliens. People will always find something.
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Religion doesn't do anything on people, it is people who do something on the name of religion.

Religion help also bad people to do good things and good people to do good things too.

Religion is not an excuse for being bad. It is too easy to put bad behavior on religion but the only one who do bad things and act badly is the person, not the religion.

You have more people doing good things from the religion than bad things. What is their excuse?
Very true. So religion certainly doesn't deserve to be condemned in such a fashion. The fact that anyone is capable of any action despite religion does, however, raise some questions about its necessity and relevance in today's society. And since it's so easily exploitable, in unstable regimes and countries with brutal traditions, it is absolutely more a handicap than an asset to their progress.
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  #22  
Old 31.05.2011, 14:20
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Re: Women Victimized in Revolutions: a Tahrir Square Virginity Test Experience

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You definitely have more people doing harm because of religion than actual good. Look at all the wars, slavery, random segregation etc. all based on religions.
if you remove religion, people will find another reason to harm other people. We just keep in mind that bad is part of human nature.
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  #23  
Old 31.05.2011, 14:22
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Re: Women Victimized in Revolutions: a Tahrir Square Virginity Test Experience

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if you remove religion, people will find another reason to harm other people. We just keep in mind that bad is part of human nature.
..so we'll just keep religion so that people won't find other means to kill, discriminated, take advantage of others?
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  #24  
Old 31.05.2011, 14:22
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Re: Women Victimized in Revolutions: a Tahrir Square Virginity Test Experience

Could we please get back on topic (not that there is much point to this topic). This is not about religion, but allegations made against the Egyptian military.
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  #25  
Old 31.05.2011, 14:23
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Re: Women Victimized in Revolutions: a Tahrir Square Virginity Test Experience

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..so we'll just keep religion so that people won't find other means to kill, discriminated, take advantage of others?
It'll happen much less on Sundays, that's gotta count for something...
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  #26  
Old 31.05.2011, 14:30
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Re: Women Victimized in Revolutions: a Tahrir Square Virginity Test Experience

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..so we'll just keep religion so that people won't find other means to kill, discriminated, take advantage of others?
you can find all kind of ways to keep people busy (bread & games)...but my point is that removing religion from equation won't change/solve the problem.

Back to military egypt: it's criminal what they did and reflects the perception of women in the society. Is it general attitude of army or only a small unit in Cairo? I don't know. But even the best trained army has stupid behaviours and decisions. Let's remember for a second Abu Ghraib.
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  #27  
Old 31.05.2011, 14:30
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Re: Women Victimized in Revolutions: a Tahrir Square Virginity Test Experience

The notion that Women can be equal to men and are not mere sexual objects is relatively new.

In the west we take it more or less for granted. Other parts of the world are not there yet. The Egyptian army is not the place to look for a modern approach.
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  #28  
Old 31.05.2011, 14:42
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Re: Women Victimized in Revolutions: a Tahrir Square Virginity Test Experience

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The notion that Women can be equal to men and are not mere sexual objects is relatively new.
This is very true, indeed.

I went to this Lapdancing club somewhere (sorry, cant remember) and in there they had 2 poles. One for men and one for women.
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  #29  
Old 31.05.2011, 15:33
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Re: Women Victimized in Revolutions: a Tahrir Square Virginity Test Experience

Virginity tests are a violation of Human Rights. The Egyptians say that they did inspections to prove that the women were not raped. The inspections were reportedly done with a line of male soldiers at the head of the woman, a male doctor and female nurse. All of the women were pronounced non-virgins. This seems kind of unlikely to me given the following:

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In other words, this means that 91 percent of Egyptian females aged 15-49 years old may have been circumcised, most of them when they were young and could not protect themselves. The surveys are conducted by the U.S.-based Macro International every 5-6 years.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/evelyn..._b_822283.html



So they then pronounced prostitutes and open to prosecution for illegal acts. After it was found that some were university students, they were left unsure of what to do with them. However in the process they have basically raped the women.
The accepted tests for men may be slightly different:

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HANOI, Vietnam - An acupuncturist who claims she can detect a man's virginity based on a small dot on the ear has become a minor celebrity in Vietnam, where she is credited with helping to free three convicted rapists from prison.
Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/offbeat/art...#ixzz1Nw8YnBxk

Last edited by hoppy; 31.05.2011 at 16:03.
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  #30  
Old 31.05.2011, 15:47
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Re: Women Victimized in Revolutions: a Tahrir Square Virginity Test Experience

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Is it general attitude of army or only a small unit in Cairo?
Be careful - insulting the Egyptian army is a punishable offense in the new&improved democratic Egypt.
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  #31  
Old 31.05.2011, 16:01
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Re: Women Victimized in Revolutions: a Tahrir Square Virginity Test Experience

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Be careful - insulting the Egyptian army is a punishable offense in the new&improved democratic Egypt.
I thought that in a previous post you were criticizing the Egyptian people wanting to get rid of the military coup/interim government?
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  #32  
Old 31.05.2011, 16:12
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Re: Women Victimized in Revolutions: a Tahrir Square Virginity Test Experience

Proof that the military transition government is not all bad

Egypt Opens Rafah Crossing: This Is What Democracy Looks Like

Robert Naiman

There was a slogan on the streets of Seattle: "This is what democracy looks like." You can't love democracy and denigrate protest, because protest is part of democracy. It's a package deal.

Likewise, you can't claim solidarity with Egyptian protesters when they take down a dictator, but act horrified that the resulting government in Egypt, more accountable to Egyptian public opinion, is more engaged in supporting Palestinian rights. It's a package deal.

On Saturday, at long last, the Egyptian government "permanently opened" the Egypt-Gaza passenger crossing at Rafah. A big part of the credit for this long-awaited development belongs to Tahrir. It was the Tahrir uprising that brought about an Egyptian government more accountable to public opinion, and it was inevitable that an Egyptian government more accountable to public opinion would open Rafah, because public opinion in Egypt bitterly opposed Egyptian participation in the blockade on Gaza.

In addition, opening Rafah was a provision of the Fatah-Hamas reconciliation accord brokered by the Egyptian government -- an achievement facilitated by the fact that the post-Tahrir Egyptian government was more flexible in the negotiations with Hamas that led to the accord.

Mubarak had a deal with the U.S. government: I obey all your commands on the Israel-Palestine issue, and in exchange, you shut your mouth about human rights and democracy. Tahrir destroyed this bargain, because it forced the U.S. to open its mouth about human rights and democracy in Egypt, regardless of Egypt's stance on Israel-Palestine. When it became clear to Egypt's rulers that subservience to the U.S. on Israel-Palestine would no longer purchase carte blanche on human rights and democracy, there was no reason to slavishly toe the U.S. line on Israel-Palestine anymore.

The Mubarak regime also had a domestic motivation for enforcing the blockade: it saw Hamas as a sister organization of Egypt's then semi-illegal opposition Muslim Brotherhood, and it saw enforcing the blockade as a means of denying Hamas "legitimacy," figuring that more "legitimacy" for Hamas would mean more "legitimacy" for Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood, thereby threatening Mubarak's iron grip on Egypt's politics.

But of course post-Tahrir developments in Egypt threw that calculation out the window: the post-Mubarak government in Egypt has reconciled with the Muslim Brotherhood, which is a de facto partner in the present interim government, and is expected to do well in September's parliamentary elections. It would be absurd for the Egyptian government to try to isolate the Muslim Brotherhood by trying to isolate its sister Hamas, when the Muslim Brotherhood is de facto part of the Egyptian government and the role of the Brotherhood in running Egypt is likely to increase.

There are other considerations. Egypt's government has seen how Turkey's influence in the region has grown dramatically as a result of its "no problems with neighbors" policy. Now Egypt is saying: "I'll have what she's having," and moving to normalize relationships in the region, just as Turkey has done.

The opening of the Rafah passenger crossing will mean that women, children, and the elderly from Gaza will be able to travel freely to Egypt and, through Egypt, almost anywhere else in the Arab world. Adult men will have to get Egyptian visas, a process that currently can take months.

But -- although it is virtually certain that some will try to claim otherwise -- the opening of Rafah does not mean that the siege of Gaza is over.

Rafah is a passenger crossing, not a cargo crossing, as AP noted in reporting on the opening of Rafah. Gaza's cargo crossings are still controlled by the Israeli government.

The Israeli human rights group Gisha reports that since 2005, "goods have not been permitted to pass via Rafah, except for humanitarian assistance which Egypt occasionally permits through Rafah."

In general, the Israeli government does not allow construction materials (cement, steel, and gravel) into Gaza. Since January, about 7 percent of what entered monthly prior to June 2007 has been allowed in for specific projects.

The Israeli government prevents regular travel for Palestinians between Gaza and the West Bank, even though according to the two-state solution which is the official policy of the U.S., Gaza and the West Bank are supposed to be one entity.

Exports from Gaza are generally prohibited by the Israeli authorities.

Palestinians in Gaza cannot farm their lands in Israel's self-declared "buffer zone" along the northern and eastern borders with Israel, estimated to contain nearly a third of Gaza's arable land.

The Israeli government does not allow Palestinian fishermen to fish beyond three nautical miles from Gaza, although under the Oslo Accord, they are supposed to be able to fish for 20 nautical miles from Gaza.

Thus, more pressure is needed on the Israeli government -- and the U.S. government, which enables Israeli policies in Gaza -- to lift the blockade.

And that's why it's so important that another international flotilla is sailing to Gaza in the third week of June, to protest the blockade. It's time to open all the crossings, not just Rafah.

Link
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  #33  
Old 31.05.2011, 16:19
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Re: Women Victimized in Revolutions: a Tahrir Square Virginity Test Experience

It's good to be a mod: you can post whatever you like, even if it is completely non relevant to the thread.

Unless you imply that it's ok to rape as long as you seem to be Anti Israel.
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  #34  
Old 31.05.2011, 16:32
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Re: Women Victimized in Revolutions: a Tahrir Square Virginity Test Experience

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It's good to be a mod: you can post whatever you like, even if it is completely non relevant to the thread.

Unless you imply that it's ok to rape as long as you seem to be Anti Israel.
Completely On-Topic.. the good and bad of a Egypt's ruling junta.
And FYI Mods frequently move/delete/merge each other's posts (or maybe they just do it to me ).
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  #35  
Old 31.05.2011, 16:40
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Re: Women Victimized in Revolutions: a Tahrir Square Virginity Test Experience

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The fact that anyone is capable of any action despite religion does, however, raise some questions about its necessity and relevance in today's society. And since it's so easily exploitable, in unstable regimes and countries with brutal traditions, it is absolutely more a handicap than an asset to their progress.
The communists certainly had no difficulty finding reasons to exploit and oppress people without needing to take recourse to religion.
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  #36  
Old 31.05.2011, 16:49
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Re: Women Victimized in Revolutions: a Tahrir Square Virginity Test Experience

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Completely On-Topic.. the good and bad of a Egypt's ruling junta.
And the balance is ? How many rapes per border crossings is fair ? How many molested kids per charity work ?

Note that the Egyptian army allows only women to travel Visa free from Gaza - now we know why.
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  #37  
Old 31.05.2011, 17:04
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Re: Women Victimized in Revolutions: a Tahrir Square Virginity Test Experience

Neither Western media nor Western countries have any clue of what Egyptians are like and what is the deal of the problems going on over there, therefore before taking anything CNN or other western media saying for granted (We all know they just wanna make big money and serving dirty political agendas), I would suggest only one thing, learn more about Egypt and Egyptians or go there and experience it yourself, it's not even 20% ugly as what the media is showing, if a developed country goes through what Egypt is going through now, people will be slaughtering each others in the streets, take an example of the French revolution

Just to give you an idea on what is going on and this is all related to each others by the way:
  • FM Nabil Al Araby does a great job opening Gaza borders, resuming good relations with Iran and Africa, negotiate the nile basin problem and re discussing the gas export.
  • Netanyahu and Israeli media starts to attacks Al Araby, saying he's an enemy of Israel (Since he was a judge at the Hague)
  • Following that, Egypt gets into what seems to be sectarian violence.
  • Attacks and bombing happening mostly in Sinai
  • Netanyahu goes to meet Obama
  • The next day, 30 min before the Arab league voting, Al Feky gets replaced by Al Araby and Qatar withdraws (Secretary of Arab League is pretty administrative position with no decisions)
  • 1 day later, US offers Egypt 2 billion US$
  • Sectarian violence and attacks stops

Anyone got the deal that was made, this is a cold war happening and it won't take long till it becomes an actual one sooner or later.

I will tell you what i suspect to happen next:
  • Some attacks will start to happen in Sinai and maybe Israeli border cities.
  • Israeli army will deploy on the borders and checkpoints, specially Rafah
  • Some attack will happen on the Israeli army personal.
  • They will claim Egyptian are not capable of securing the area and will advance into Sinai
  • God only knows what is gonna happen next, but if this happens....it will turn so bad

All what is above is just a realistic analysis of what's happening and i tried to not be biased as possible
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  #38  
Old 31.05.2011, 17:10
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Re: Women Victimized in Revolutions: a Tahrir Square Virginity Test Experience

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The communists certainly had no difficulty finding reasons to exploit and oppress people without needing to take recourse to religion.
Certainly, religion is just a tool after all. When all else fails, brute force and every-man-for-himself works too. Still, it makes a dictator's life much easier when you can get people to stop asking questions and do as they're told on their own, and the major communist regimes of the 20th century exploited people's irrationality as much as any religion, they just did it under the guise of everyone being "equal" (all while not practicising what they preached and profiteering) and through personality cults for their leaders. When killing gets messy, you can always just get people to believe in something really really hard despite all evidence to the contrary and you've got them. This can take many forms, religion being just one.
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  #39  
Old 31.05.2011, 17:54
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Re: Women Victimized in Revolutions: a Tahrir Square Virginity Test Experience

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Just to give you an idea on what is going on and this is all related to each others by the way:

All what is above is just a realistic analysis of what's happening and i tried to not be biased as possible
.... and this long rant/conspiracy raving is related to the thread ?
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Old 31.05.2011, 17:55
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Re: Women Victimized in Revolutions: a Tahrir Square Virginity Test Experience

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.... and this long rant/conspiracy raving is related to the thread ?
What do you think?
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