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  #61  
Old 01.06.2011, 17:23
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Re: Women Victimized in Revolutions: a Tahrir Square Virginity Test Experience

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In the meantime,western banks are losing business to Islamic banking. Even westerners are investing in Islamic banks because they believe them to be a safer option. Surely business follows the banks? Western businesses cannot afford to lose Saudi business. China may own much of the US but so does Saudi Arabia. China seemed to be building a string relationship with Qatar but now Qatar has ruled that they will only allow Muslim banks, not western bans that offer Muslim services. The Qatari national bank is doing well even Egypt is up
I would not quite agree Western banks loosing business to Islamic banking. Though for individuals Islamic banking would more expensive in terms of interest dubbed as Mark Up, but could be a viable option for Investment bankers, they can get higher rate of interest and also the capital is relatively safer.

Its not about Western banks Vs Muslim banks, but each State can see what si coming and trying to limit their exposure from the Domino effect in the Global financial and banking system.

Lehman in US and Northern Rock in UK were sent under to stop the effect right there and move the liabilities as "Toxic" debt to another accounting entity.

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I am still trying to work this all out, but find it very interesting. Crimes against humanity occur in all countries, but the choice of which to publicize and which not is politically and business oriented.
Duh!

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Isn't the very concept of islamic banking a misnomer because Islam does not allow interest to be charged and Islamic banks are using a devious constructs around that but at the core they're just putting the Western banking system with all its good points and bad in a perfumed burka and calling it an islamic banking sytem. Any reasonably aware Muslim can see through it.
100% right. What they call "Mark up," instead of interest is actually the prevailing interest rate + some more. So one can setup an Islamic Bank, take loans from a Western bank on the interest rate and then lend it to muslims on a mark up (interest +) and pocket the difference.

It is a ploy for muslims who are stupid enough to believe that interest in the name is not allowed withouth looking at the mechanics.

- Islamic economics is totally based on Gold/commodity standard.

- Rent on Capital (interest) is not allowed as it does not consititue as Factors of Production, as it does in Western economics.

- Banks cannot exist in Islam, as the principle of "Hoarding" is as Haram as interest. Goods and money should flow freely i.e. Distribution of money is important rather than sitting in banks or funds at the disposal of few individuals.

To give few features and differences.

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Tha's what they also said about Ghaddafi as they continued to kiss his feet while he was kicking them in the teeth. But things can change very quickly and today people do business with Ghaddafi at their own peril. The Saudi hegemony may not be as rock solid as it thinks either and their arrogance may yet turn around to haunt them.
Wrong. Ghaddafi/Libya still enjoy the "Preferential" status in trade with EU. If you want to import oil from US it would be more expensive than same product from LIbya due to Import taxes. Libyan crude as no import taxes.

Further more, the petrol you fill in your cars can be very easily from Libya, even Iranian origin.

Saddam (Iraq), Iran, Libya (also) Mohatir Muhammed, ex PM of Malaysia, one thing they all had in common was, they were wanting to move away from USD denominated trade.

Iraq and Iran were/is wanting to trade in Euros, which didnt transpire, Opppss PIGS go bankrupt and Euro is in crisis.

Mohatir of Malaysia, wanted to settle internation trade using Gold based "Dinars" atleast among the Islamic block and then expand to elsewhere. Uh huh.. he was violating humans rights!

Ghaddafi/Libya started to ask for Gold in exchange for its crude, and Ohhh there is a civilian crisis and a revolution in Libya.

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If the Saudis think they can outsmart the Chinese they may have a surprise coming.
Saudis dont have to outsmart the Chinese, they just have to keep them close and friendly. Incase Remnbi takes hold as International currency. All Saudis have is crude and they have to sell it to someone otherwise they will be back to camel herding and looting caravans.
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  #62  
Old 01.06.2011, 17:43
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Re: Women Victimized in Revolutions: a Tahrir Square Virginity Test Experience

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Mohatir of Malaysia, wanted to settle internation trade using Gold based "Dinars" atleast among the Islamic block and then expand to elsewhere. Uh huh.. he was violating humans rights!

Ghaddafi/Libya started to ask for Gold in exchange for its crude, and Ohhh there is a civilian crisis and a revolution in Libya.



Saudis dont have to outsmart the Chinese, they just have to keep them close and friendly. Incase Remnbi takes hold as International currency. All Saudis have is crude and they have to sell it to someone otherwise they will be back to camel herding and looting caravans.
I had to laugh!

Thanks Amogles and Wasted for making the conversation more interesting.
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  #63  
Old 01.06.2011, 19:12
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Re: Women Victimized in Revolutions: a Tahrir Square Virginity Test Experience

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................................................
Saddam (Iraq), Iran, Libya (also) Mohatir Muhammed, ex PM of Malaysia, one thing they all had in common was, they were wanting to move away from USD denominated trade.

Iraq and Iran were/is wanting to trade in Euros, which didnt transpire, Opppss PIGS go bankrupt and Euro is in crisis.

Mohatir of Malaysia, wanted to settle internation trade using Gold based "Dinars" atleast among the Islamic block and then expand to elsewhere. Uh huh.. he was violating humans rights!

Ghaddafi/Libya started to ask for Gold in exchange for its crude, and Ohhh there is a civilian crisis and a revolution in Libya.
............
& your point is?
They had unreal aspirations because currently there is no monetary alternative to the USD?
Gold is not a viable option because there is not enough volume of gold around to sustain international trade so is also not a practical alternative. Historically oil was bought using gold but they had to stop for this very reason.
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  #64  
Old 02.06.2011, 03:57
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Re: Women Victimized in Revolutions: a Tahrir Square Virginity Test Experience

There is some confusion as to whether this poetess is alive or not. I hope that the independent version; that she is alive albeit perhaps in pretty bad shape after being tortured, is true.

I have been trying to get a translation of the poem that she was imprisoned for, but can't even find the original

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...m-2292032.html
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  #65  
Old 02.06.2011, 05:18
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Re: Women Victimized in Revolutions: a Tahrir Square Virginity Test Experience

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I think this is not necessarily an issue solely pertaining to the middle east. I've noticed similar idiocy, wherever religion has a stronghold of society. These people simply lost the ability to sit down and cogigate about what's best for society...but much rather prefer to rest on old principles and cultural standards. We should abolish all religions I say.
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  #66  
Old 02.06.2011, 11:13
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Re: Women Victimized in Revolutions: a Tahrir Square Virginity Test Experience

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Do you really think that western women are chased down the streets all over Egypt? Why is it such a popular holiday destination for western tourists?

Do western tourists like to harassed and chased down the street?
Western people go on tour groups and go to resort enclaves where normal Egyptians can't go.

I've been to Egpyt and my friend is nearly 187cm tall and blond and she has literally been stalked numerous times. she is harassed on an almost daily basis by men standing on the streets, bridges, etc. This is in Cairo. Well she was, then she learned that typical Western dress for a woman in a hot environment is considered slutty in Egypt. So now she cover's her shoulders and sometimes her head, and the harassment is minimum.

Women don't have to do this in Japan to not be harassed.

See my post below:
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  #67  
Old 02.06.2011, 11:20
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Re: Women Victimized in Revolutions: a Tahrir Square Virginity Test Experience

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comparing all egyptian men to DSK or Clinton as sex obsessed depraved people is also not a very good comparison. Your story about men chasing western women as raw meat is simplistic if not just a sign of ignorance. Considering how some western men chase raw meat in Thailand, Dominican Republic, Kenya, Russian, Brasil and other sex tourism destination does not give any moral authority to judge others.
I never said all Egyptian men do anything. Do not misquote me. If you live in a town where 10-20% of the men are running around with guns murdering people on a daily basis it would be unlivable despite how MOST MEN LIVE.

Trying to change the subject by saying how Western men act in certain places is a logical fallacy.

I am not even going to address it because I don't play that game, "oh mommy I'm not bad, look what Tommy did..." type of nonsense.

You are trying to compare individual perverts like Clinton, which is probably like 1 in 100,000 if that, to something that goes on in Egypt all the time. LOL Nice try, but I'm not buying it. I don't need to point to individual Egyptian men to serve as a standard, I don't even have to rely on mine and my friend's personal experience. I will rely on WHAT EGYPTIANS SAY.

The Egyptian Centre for Women's Rights (ECWR):


Experienced by 98% of foreign women visitors
Experienced by 83% of Egyptian women
62% of Egyptian men admitted harassing women
53% of Egyptian men blame women for 'bringing it on'

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7514567.stm

and I'm not done more recent stuff, an arab writing about Egypt:

http://www.almasryalyoum.com/en/node/460017

Over 83% of women said they have been sexually harassed, what???
this writer says the polls are just "stating the obvious". Wow.

That doesn't sound like Japan...but hey...maybe you know something I don't.

Do you think most Western nations have these statistics??? If you can find similar stats in the U.S., UK, Japan or even Italy then I will "buy what you are selling" if not...I can wait. We can determine who is "ignorant" after "show and prove".

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  #68  
Old 02.06.2011, 11:43
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Re: Women Victimized in Revolutions: a Tahrir Square Virginity Test Experience

Maybe some people need to define what is considered harassment for a starter?

If a beautiful woman is passing in front of a group of men and one man liked here and just whistled or said how beautiful is she, is this considered harassment?

If a man goes to a woman to speak to her and tell her politely he likes her and would like to have a chat, is this harassment?

If this is what you consider harassment, then i think all men are harassing women all over the world, cause this happens everywhere.

And if this is not what you consider harassment and it's more of a violent sexual act, then i can assure you we're totally talking about different Egypt.

Last, if a man is harassing a woman in Switzerland, people will be ignoring this and no one will comment or help, while you actually get people who stop any individuals who attempt inappropriate attitude in Egypt.

Before just flaming at Egyptians and Arabs all over the place, let's first put some guidelines and define what is considered harassment in the first place.

I don't think anyone would be happy if people start to say "US are cold blooded killers" cause they go to war without defining what is the difference between attempt murder and going to war to protect civilians.


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Trying to change the subject by saying how Western men act in certain places is a logical fallacy.

I am not even going to address it because I don't play that game, "oh mommy I'm not bad, look what Tommy did..." type of nonsense.

You are trying to compare individual perverts like Clinton, which is probably like 1 in 100,000 if that, to something that goes on in Egypt all the time. LOL Nice try, but I'm not buying it, here is why...I don't need to point to individual Egyptian men to serve as a standard, I don't even have to rely on mine and my friend's personal experience. I will rely on WHAT EGYPTIANS SAY.

Here is what Egyptians say about their own nation.


Experienced by 98% of foreign women visitors
Experienced by 83% of Egyptian women
62% of Egyptian men admitted harassing women
53% of Egyptian men blame women for 'bringing it on'

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7514567.stm



Do you think most Western nations have these statistics??? If you can find similar stats in the U.S., UK, and Japan then I will "buy what you are selling" if not...I can wait. We can determine who is "ignorant" after "show and prove".
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  #69  
Old 02.06.2011, 11:51
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Re: Women Victimized in Revolutions: a Tahrir Square Virginity Test Experience

Being Harassed...

It happens all over the world buddy
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Old 02.06.2011, 11:51
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Re: Women Victimized in Revolutions: a Tahrir Square Virginity Test Experience

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Maybe some people need to define what is considered harassment for a starter?

If a beautiful woman is passing in front of a group of men and one man liked here and just whistled or said how beautiful is she, is this considered harassment?

If a man goes to a woman to speak to her and tell her politely he likes her and would like to have a chat, is this harassment?

If this is what you consider harassment, then i think all men are harassing women all over the world, cause this happens everywhere.

And if this is not what you consider harassment and it's more of a violent sexual act, then i can assure you we're totally talking about different Egypt.

Last, if a man is harassing a woman in Switzerland, people will be ignoring this and no one will comment or help, while you actually get people who stop any individuals who attempt inappropriate attitude in Egypt.

Before just flaming at Egyptians and Arabs all over the place, let's first put some guidelines and define what is considered harassment in the first place.

I don't think anyone would be happy if people start to say "US are cold blooded killers" cause they go to war without defining what is the difference between attempt murder and going to war to protect civilians.
How about we use whatever standard Egyptian women use. The polls I posted were done by Egyptians and not western people. So Egyptians are using their own morality to define what is harassment.

So no one is "picking on Egypt or Arabs" I am simply stating what I have experienced, what my friends have experienced, and what Egyptians state about themselves. I believe that is quite fair, it just so happens that many Egyptian women agree with my opinion.

At this point I'm not concerned with what is happening in Switzerland and I don't want to morally equivocate some other issue with America.

I want to say on the specific topic.

How I would define sexual harassment:

Trying to put your hands on women in a sexual way. Asking women if they are "Natashas" (Russian prostitutes) on buses, following women down the street (overtly) after she blew you off...I think that is harassment. I would also include asking for sexual favors in return for something else...etc.

I'm not sure what standard Egyptian woman are using to define sexual harassment. but I've also fond this:

I think this qualified as harassment anywhere.

So do you think that multiple Arab people speaking about Egypt as I posted above are lying or exaggerating what life is like?
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Old 02.06.2011, 11:54
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Re: Women Victimized in Revolutions: a Tahrir Square Virginity Test Experience

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Being Harassed...

It happens all over the world buddy
I never said it did not, I'm talking about the rate of harassment not if it exist everywhere.

I would argue there is no Western nation (or in Japan) where you can get a poll like the ones that have come out of Egypt concerning sexual harassment.

Where would you want to live with a wife and daughter (if you are a man) in a place where 1 in 50 women in sexually harassed in a given year or half the women are harassed in a given year? I'm not speaking specifically about Egypt but just in general. Half the women means your wife or daughter will be sexually harassed that year, very likely. 1/50 means they have a 2% chance.
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Old 02.06.2011, 11:55
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Re: Women Victimized in Revolutions: a Tahrir Square Virginity Test Experience

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I never said it did not, I'm talking about the rate of harassment not if it exist everywhere.

I would argue there is no Western nation (or in Japan) where you can get a poll like the ones that have come out of Egypt concerning sexual harassment.

Where would you want to live with a wife and daughter (if you are a man) in a place where 1 in 50 women in sexually harassed in a given year or half the women are harassed in a given year? I'm not speaking specifically about Egypt but just in general.
So why does your friend stay there?
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Old 02.06.2011, 12:02
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Re: Women Victimized in Revolutions: a Tahrir Square Virginity Test Experience

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So why does your friend stay there?
Should half of Egyptian women who say they have been harassed leave the country?

It is my friends job. She works for the U.S. government. This happens to most women she is working with who are young and are not dressing in a more conservative Islamic fashion. They just deal with it. You don't quit your career because you get a bad posting. She will leave in 3 months anyway...heading somewhere else. She said they were warned about this the first week in country in an orientation training, but she didn't realize how bad it was until actually dealing with it daily. She said if she is with a man or dresses very very conservative (by western standards) she is usually okay. If she is alone or dressed in typical western clothes (this girl does not dress "slutty" by any Western standard) she is usually harassed...she didn't say but from what I saw in Cairo, I would guess a few times a week. So imagine a 187 cm blond skinny woman walking hurried through the streets in the evenings with legs and arms covered in 35 degree weather. Sometimes head to. Well, that is how most Egyptian women dress (but maybe half of them in Cairo cover their head I guess...not sure, just an estimate based on what I saw).

Also remember she is not Egyptian or Muslim. If Egyptian women report such high rates of harassment, I'm pretty sure Western women don't get as much respect. I've done a lot of traveling in the East more than in the West actually, it is not an usual stereotype that Western women, especially blonds and Americans, due to movies are "slutty" so some men feel it is okay to take liberties they can't do with their local women. When I was in China, a lot of guys said things like this to me, difference is they usually aren't bold enough to approach women and start harassing them in public.
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Old 02.06.2011, 12:03
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Re: Women Victimized in Revolutions: a Tahrir Square Virginity Test Experience

I tell you something, i come from Egypt and i know very well there's cases of over reacting with foreigners in tourist places, not entirely harassment.

To speak about a country and claim such claims, we need to speak about what represents the population not the worst of the population.....so the majority of the population (+95% of the 85 Million) are not harassing men, you can only suspect that from some of the people working in touristic areas which are no more than 1 million in total.....does these stats still make sense to you?
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Old 02.06.2011, 12:13
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Re: Women Victimized in Revolutions: a Tahrir Square Virginity Test Experience

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I tell you something, i come from Egypt and i know very well there's cases of over reacting with foreigners in tourist places, not entirely harassment.

To speak about a country and claim such claims, we need to speak about what represents the population not the worst of the population.....so the majority of the population (+95% of the 85 Million) are not harassing men, you can only suspect that from some of the people working in touristic areas which are no more than 1 million in total.....does these stats still make sense to you?
Like I said, I don't believe all Egyptian men harass women, I have an Egyptian friend who would never do something like that. However, to say there is no problem I think is dishonest.

As I said this happens in every country on earth that I know of, but some nations are worse than others.

I come from America, we have a problem with gun crime. For me to say that it is not a problem and pretend it is fantasy does nothing to to change the reality.
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Old 02.06.2011, 12:19
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Re: Women Victimized in Revolutions: a Tahrir Square Virginity Test Experience

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Like I said, I don't believe all Egyptian men harass women, I have an Egyptian friend who would never do something like that. However, to say there is no problem I think is dishonest.

As I said this happens in every country on earth that I know of, but some nations are worse than others.

I come from America, we have a problem with gun crime. For me to say that it is not a problem and pretend it is fantasy does nothing to to change the reality.
There's a problem and needs to be addressed, i totally agree...but the stats provided are way higher than what it actually is.

Here's the UN stats of rape around the world just for the info (Wikipedia):



Do you still think Egypt is that bad?
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Old 02.06.2011, 12:38
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Re: Women Victimized in Revolutions: a Tahrir Square Virginity Test Experience

I would just like to point out that this is a list of reported rapes, which generally has little to no connection to the actual number.

example - Cameroon's 447 reported rapes does not really match this: A countrywide survey of the incidence of rape in Cameroon has returned disturbing statistics: 20 percent of the nearly 38,000 women surveyed reported having been raped; another 14 percent said they had escaped a rape attempt. http://allafrica.com/stories/200911050001.html

So I highly suspect there might be similar differences between reports and actual cases in many other countries.
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Old 02.06.2011, 13:01
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Re: Women Victimized in Revolutions: a Tahrir Square Virginity Test Experience

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There's a problem and needs to be addressed, i totally agree...but the stats provided are way higher than what it actually is.

Here's the UN stats of rape around the world just for the info (Wikipedia):



Do you still think Egypt is that bad?
Well I think there is a difference in rape and harassment.

You are Egyptian, I'm not, but what does this sound like to you?

Egyptians like many Middle Eastern nations put a heavy price on virginity (this is also true in China and some other nations, not just Muslim), so maybe harassment is a cheap thrill, rape is TOO FAR.

Also I would say many women who are raped in America never report it. I believe the number is over 1/3 are never reported.

I would imagine in many cultures focused on male honor they will not report rapes. It dishonors the family. I imagine in Japan, which is more about "shame", it is often that rape would not be reported because the woman would personally feel ashamed.

Also I think any crime reports in undeveloped nations like Guinea are spotty. Take it with a "grain of salt".

It's interesting that the UK and America have nearly identical rates of rape. That's another topic, but quite interesting. Our demographics are quite different, but for rape it comes out about the same.
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  #79  
Old 02.06.2011, 15:02
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Re: Women Victimized in Revolutions: a Tahrir Square Virginity Test Experience

Anyway, statistics on rape are always slippery as rape isn't really unambiguously defined in all cases, especially for example when it's within a relationship or other factors are in play including people changing their minds half way through sex. We recently learnt that in Sweden it is rape to have sex without a condom when afterwards one of the people involved regrets that.
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Old 02.06.2011, 20:27
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Re: Women Victimized in Revolutions: a Tahrir Square Virginity Test Experience

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(...)

I don't need to point to individual Egyptian men to serve as a standard, I don't even have to rely on mine and my friend's personal experience. I will rely on WHAT EGYPTIANS SAY.
.
1) You were mentioning your egyptian friend in your previous post, you did not rely on statistics to make your statement.

2) you were opposing Japan and Egypt to compare attitudes towards harrassement and you wrote that japanese don't "chase women like raw meat" .... meaning implicitly not like egyptians (without distinction)

3) the statistics you mention in a second post do not have a sense unless you understand what is considered as harrassement. There are already differences between USA and France so imagine with Egypt. Like Mowich explained for some women in Egypt or any arabic country just talking to her and inviting her is considered as harrassement (b't3akess in arabic/english slang).

4) The statistics in japan is 64% of women admit being victim of groping as well as 70% of students and not only during "drunken hours" but at any time in the train and even in crowded streets. The "women only wagon car" is for rush hour not only for "drunken time"

So all in all your comparison of cultural sexual harrassement between Japan and Egypt is flawed.
I don't say you are ignorant.....but rather one who thinks he knows really.
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