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Old 11.06.2011, 16:44
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NATO Kaput?

U.S. Defense Secretary Gates, in an uncharacteristic fashion, lambasted NATO member states (but for a few, like Canada, Denmark, etc) for not living up to their commitments and expecting the U.S. to shoulder the burden where they fall short.

He also sited that the European lead (well French and British) strikes on Libya are experiencing complication because they are ALREADY running out of munitions and need America to help them.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ert-Gates.html

Opinions?
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Old 11.06.2011, 16:51
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Re: NATO Kaput?

Yes, NATO is a joke and it needed saying. But America should realise that thanks to the history of 20th century in Europe most of Europe, excluding Britain, is very wary of any kind of military engagement...
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Old 11.06.2011, 17:15
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Re: NATO Kaput?

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Yes, NATO is a joke and it needed saying. But America should realise that thanks to the history of 20th century in Europe most of Europe, excluding Britain, is very wary of any kind of military engagement...
These times are a changing. NATO is surplus to requirements.
NATO was established not only to discourage Communist aggression but also to keep the peace among former enemies in Western Europe. Maps change, enemies change. They resent being a dog without a bone.
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Old 11.06.2011, 21:59
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Re: NATO Kaput?

not wanting to offend, but ffs!!!!! Libya is an complicated issue, there are nasty things happening here, but hang on didn't America help Gadaffi early doors? And don't want to upset him?

NATO - North Atlantic Treaty of Organisations formed 1949, first major issue Korean war, which led to the Americans moving the organisation towards intervention.

I'm not American bashing or anything like that, but Libya isn't in the American interest, therefore they don't want anything to do with it and don't like NATO being the 'lead'. There are hundreds of conflicts which NATO and EU and America have failed to do anything about.

NATO is there to protect when enough members have a say and it becomes difficult to say no.
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Old 11.06.2011, 22:02
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Re: NATO Kaput?

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U.S. Defense Secretary Gates, in an uncharacteristic fashion, lambasted NATO member states (but for a few, like Canada, Denmark, etc) for not living up to their commitments and expecting the U.S. to shoulder the burden where they fall short.

He also sited that the European lead (well French and British) strikes on Libya are experiencing complication because they are ALREADY running out of munitions and need America to help them.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ert-Gates.html

Opinions?

And all this time I was speculating that NATO members just didn't want to support a warmongering America.
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Old 12.06.2011, 01:21
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Re: NATO Kaput?

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And all this time I was speculating that NATO members just didn't want to support a warmongering America.

LOL, as LondonAl correctly stated, the US did not want to get into Libya, that was an effort lead initially by the French, then backed by the Brits, THEN LASTLY by Washington.

Some how I think that if the U.S. packed it all up and went home, from every base in the world and ONLY protected our own, there would be more than one nation on earth begging us to keep troops around.

Then again, who knows, maybe the world would be much safer and more stable because, you know, there is absolutely no military threat in the world but the U.S. The U.S. is the worst of all..
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Old 12.06.2011, 11:05
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Re: NATO Kaput?

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Some how I think that if the U.S. packed it all up and went home, from every base in the world and ONLY protected our own, there would be more than one nation on earth begging us to keep troops around.

Care to name a few ? Your troops come with financial incentives, it's not the troops these countries want.
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Old 12.06.2011, 11:20
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Re: NATO Kaput?

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Care to name a few ? Your troops come with financial incentives, it's not the troops these countries want.
Actually a US friend of mine was in a very special unit involved in quite a few countries, before finishing his army legal degree. The reaction of locals he talked about in the Middle East, Africa and former Yugoslavia when these guys were helping locals into safety mentioned zero cash.
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Old 12.06.2011, 11:21
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Re: NATO Kaput?

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Care to name a few ? Your troops come with financial incentives, it's not the troops these countries want.
Taiwan
S. Korea
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Old 12.06.2011, 11:28
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Re: NATO Kaput?

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Taiwan
S. Korea
There by invite or request or there by Political and Financial sway ? I see nothing that suggests these governments are begging to keep US troops on their soil.
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Old 12.06.2011, 11:40
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Re: NATO Kaput?

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Actually a US friend of mine was in a very special unit involved in quite a few countries, before finishing his army legal degree. The reaction of locals he talked about in the Middle East, Africa and former Yugoslavia when these guys were helping locals into safety mentioned zero cash.
I don't think troops on the ground are in anyway involved in financial negotiations between the governments nor would they be knowledgeable of such negotiations.
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Old 12.06.2011, 11:42
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Re: NATO Kaput?

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I see nothing that suggests these governments are begging to keep US troops on their soil.
Apart from common sense, perhaps?

This map might help you:


Last edited by Dougal's Breakfast; 12.06.2011 at 11:59. Reason: added map
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Old 12.06.2011, 11:55
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Re: NATO Kaput?

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I don't think troops on the ground are in anyway involved in financial negotiations between the governments nor would they be knowledgeable of such negotiations.
What I tried to say, was nobody would have helped and lives would be lost. Cash or not, these local folks were not important even to their own government. It is too easy to sit here in safety and make comments about motivation of certain army maneuvers in distant places. Things had to be fast and efficient, my friends were sent there, they saved thousands and risked enormously, one is discharged with serious PTSD, others have their own memories to sort through. And, due to their ranks, they actually knew a lot about negotiations. The funny thing is, they never mention when they have done for people. No system is perfect, but it's so fashionable to be critical of US army/navy. I have a few personal heros and these guys are somewhere near the top (plus it was lovely to talk guns with somebody who knows their stuff ). So, financial motivation or not, I feel to reduce it to mere cash is not very respectful, nor insightful.
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Old 12.06.2011, 12:02
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Re: NATO Kaput?

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What I tried to say, was nobody would have helped and lives would be lost. Cash or not, these local folks were not important even to their own government. It is too easy to sit here in safety and make comments about motivation of certain army maneuvers in distant places. Things had to be fast and efficient, my friends were sent there, they saved thousands and risked enormously, one is discharged with serious PTSD, others have their own memories to sort through. And, due to their ranks, they actually knew a lot about negotiations. The funny thing is, they never mention when they have done for people. No system is perfect, but it's so fashionable to be critical of US army/navy. I have a few personal heros and these guys are somewhere near the top (plus it was lovely to talk guns with somebody who knows their stuff ). So, financial motivation or not, I feel to reduce it to mere cash is not very respectful, nor insightful.

We are talking about major presence of US troops on foreign soil at the begged bequest of foreign Governments. The micro-military actions you talk of do not really fit into this picture. It's an entirely different level.

Don't get me wrong, but people join the army to kill, or help kill, or to assist in some way in the killing process. Painting fairy tale pictures of soldiers handing out candy to kids or assisting helpless refugees is propaganda at it's worst.
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Old 12.06.2011, 12:04
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Re: NATO Kaput?

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Don't get me wrong, but people join the army to kill, or help kill, or to assist in some way in the killing process.
And for that, those of us who sit on our arses in comfortable flats in Switzerland should be profoundly grateful.
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Old 12.06.2011, 12:19
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Re: NATO Kaput?

Things might be getting out of control nowadays but in general if it hadn't been for org like NATO we wouldn't have enjoyed many peaceful years in post world war era - let's not forget about it.
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Old 12.06.2011, 12:21
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Re: NATO Kaput?

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W
Don't get me wrong, but people join the army to kill, or help kill, or to assist in some way in the killing process. Painting fairy tale pictures of soldiers handing out candy to kids or assisting helpless refugees is propaganda at it's worst.
Your world must be a really dark and bitter place.
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Old 12.06.2011, 12:22
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Re: NATO Kaput?

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Your world must be a really dark and bitter place.
Now why would you say something like that ?
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Old 12.06.2011, 12:45
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Indeed, not the first time I have had to correct you.


Anyway, back to the topic:

Yes, the civilised world needs the support of the United States and the United States needs the support of the civilised world.

One doesn't squander useful friendships without good reason.

This is a minor bump in a long road of cooperation. We got through Suez and Grenada without breaking up. I'm sure we'll get through this.
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Old 12.06.2011, 12:52
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Re: NATO Kaput?

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There by invite or request or there by Political and Financial sway ? I see nothing that suggests these governments are begging to keep US troops on their soil.
you should get out more
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