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  #21  
Old 12.06.2011, 23:13
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Re: China Now Consumes More Energy Than the U.S.

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If youre so worried about energy consumption then I would encourage you to stop using the internet and the trains and the shower and the.... everything.
So basically, you're saying that no one has the right to be concerned about energy consumption unless they themselves completely stop all forms of energy consumption (rather than simply curbing it)? Do you honestly not realize how ridiculous that sounds?

Well, I guess we could all just drink "magic Kool Aid" too, and that would solve the problem.
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Old 12.06.2011, 23:15
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Re: China Now Consumes More Energy Than the U.S.

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well, i think the US can particularly be a lot more efficient. the huge cars they drive are real gas guzzlers, this is made worse by the fact that americans commute huge distances.

higher prices will force us all to change. but it is a shame that we can be more efficient already without a great deal of impact on our quality of living. just simple things like turning off appliances when not in use etc. would help.
Um? right.... You just missed the entire point I think. The US doesnt have large trucks because they like to guzzle petrol. They have big autos because the US car companies are shiit.

A larger engine has the ability to double your profit margins. Thus if you make low quality goods, which American cars are 90% of the time, then you need to make your money on charging more for the auto.

If the US didnt make Chinese goods and pay their workers German wages then the US would produce more sensible automobiles.

But if the Government were to charge a 100% tax on oil then that would fix the problem. And thats the point. Its not politically feasible for Barack BinBama to raise petrol taxs. He is only looking out for his own well-being.

If Americans made smaller cars the entire auto industry in the US would lose $2200 per car according to a report I read in 2007 or 2008.

The only answer is higher prices.
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Old 12.06.2011, 23:19
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Re: China Now Consumes More Energy Than the U.S.

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So basically, you're saying that no one has the right to be concerned about energy consumption unless they themselves completely stop all forms of energy consumption (rather than simply curbing it)? Do you honestly not realize how ridiculous that sounds?

Well, I guess we could all just drink "magic Kool Aid" too, and that would solve the problem.
No, Im not saying to be wasteful. But how many people can live without energy? I just hate these people who say "I cut my carbon foot-print in half today by telling people to stop consuming so much"..... They didnt REALLLY cut their carbon foot print. They have written a synthetic call option on their friends carbon foot-print.

So yes, curb your consumption. But there is an easier way and thats through higher costs for energy. If you were to charge everyone 5x what they currently pay for energy they would all turn off everything in the house and give them selves extra time to walk to work rather than drive.

But, I repeat, no politician has the balls.
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Old 12.06.2011, 23:28
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Re: China Now Consumes More Energy Than the U.S.

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(rather than simply curbing it):
Oh and by the way, if we were to force everyone to implement the "anti-global warming strategies" that have been out-lined by the American government CSC, by 2030 we will have lowered our emissions by 0.9%......!

!

?

I guess thats good, but truely the only way to stop the problem is to infact stop the majority of energy consumption and most people cant do that.
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Old 12.06.2011, 23:46
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Re: China Now Consumes More Energy Than the U.S.

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So yes, curb your consumption. But there is an easier way and thats through higher costs for energy. If you were to charge everyone 5x what they currently pay for energy they would all turn off everything in the house and give them selves extra time to walk to work rather than drive.

But, I repeat, no politician has the balls.
Well, the problem that I find in your theory is that it would allow only the rich or very financially-stable to afford electricity. And I think the last thing this world needs (particularly in the US) is more policies that favor the rich and put the poor at more of a disadvantage.

Also... I'm not sure where YOU'RE from, but I am from the US, and I see just as many foreign SUV's on the streets there as I see American-made SUV's. Actually, I probably see more foreign cars there than I see American-made cars. I think the reason that so many Americans drive large SUVs is because, for one thing, there really is such a "bigger is better" mentality there. Of course, that doesn't apply to EVERY American, but it certainly does apply to many of them. And I think THIS is what really needs reversed.
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Old 13.06.2011, 00:17
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Re: China Now Consumes More Energy Than the U.S.

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Well, the problem that I find in your theory is that it would allow only the rich or very financially-stable to afford electricity. And I think the last thing this world needs (particularly in the US) is more policies that favor the rich and put the poor at more of a disadvantage.

Also... I'm not sure where YOU'RE from, but I am from the US, and I see just as many foreign SUV's on the streets there as I see American-made SUV's. Actually, I probably see more foreign cars there than I see American-made cars. I think the reason that so many Americans drive large SUVs is because, for one thing, there really is such a "bigger is better" mentality there. Of course, that doesn't apply to EVERY American, but it certainly does apply to many of them. And I think THIS is what really needs reversed.
Um? Mam, you are "the rich and very financially stable".... Youre American and live in Switzerland. Must be pretty hard for you.

If you cant afford a car then trust me it wont hurt you so much. So these guys will have to pay $10,000 for a first class ticket rather than $4,000. I dont know too many poor and destitute hopping on a flight from Paris to Vegas for a long weekend.

FYI, these foriegn brand SUVs are made in the USA. http://www.bmwusfactory.com/

But it your a forgein auto firm and you produce a high quality car for $40,000 and you have to compete with a low quality US made SUV that costs $30,000 then you are forced to play the game. I would really encourage you to take an econ 101 class.

As far as "bigger is better", yes I see it there as well. But this has stemmed from massive borrowing, rather than massive savings. People in America choose to go into debt. The average 45 year old in 1960 had a positive net worth of $20,000. Thats roughly double their yearly salary back then. Today the average 45 year old man has a NEGATIVE $118,000 net value, because he is in debt. So the Americans have taken out mortgages to buy shiit they dont need. That cant last forever. They will need to save for retirement sooner or later.

Americans believe in quantity over quality because its cheaper. So yes tell me about hurting the poor people, blah blah blah. Ive been homeless longer than you have been in Switzerland. The poor get by just fine. Its the people who borrowed all that money to buy visible signs of wealth that will be hurt the most. But thats what happens when you build your house on sand.
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  #27  
Old 13.06.2011, 02:55
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Re: China Now Consumes More Energy Than the U.S.

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Um? Mam, you are "the rich and very financially stable".... Youre American and live in Switzerland. Must be pretty hard for you.
Well, I am certainly not "rich." But relatively speaking, yes I do have it much better off than most people in the world. Regardless, I try to not shape my views according to my own economic status, and I most certainly hope to never lose my sympathy for the poor. So once again, I find your argument to be rather ridiculous because you are apparently trying to say that I have no right to express any sympathy for the poor since I live in Switzerland. And you are also making wild assumptions about my life, of which you know nothing about, in a lame attempt to shoot me down and loosely support your own argument.

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FYI, these foriegn brand SUVs are made in the USA. http://www.bmwusfactory.com/
But is a Honda that was made in Japan really that much better in quality than one that was made in the US? And if your answer is "yes," then why is that? (I'm asking this out of genuine curiosity...).

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As far as "bigger is better", yes I see it there as well. But this has stemmed from massive borrowing, rather than massive savings. People in America choose to go into debt. The average 45 year old in 1960 had a positive net worth of $20,000. Thats roughly double their yearly salary back then. Today the average 45 year old man has a NEGATIVE $118,000 net value, because he is in debt. So the Americans have taken out mortgages to buy shiit they dont need. That cant last forever. They will need to save for retirement sooner or later.
I definitely agree that many Americans overspend. And I blame this partly on the fact that that the definition of "normal standard of living" has become rather warped in the US and in much of the industrialized world. However, I don't think that Americans really "choose to go into debt," as you said. I think that, sadly, many of them were forced into that situation after losing their jobs, etc. -- especially in the past 10 years.
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  #28  
Old 13.06.2011, 11:59
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Re: China Now Consumes More Energy Than the U.S.

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But remember China has about 1.3 billion people and America has about 305 million, so China is about 4X bigger.

As far as income...GDP per capita (PPP) in China is

US$7,600, the U.S. is $47,200, so the U.S. is 6Xs wealthier.

A lot of economics who look at commodities are not even sure there are enough fossil fuels in the world if the average Chinese wants to live at an American standard (especially concerning automobiles, etc)...and although China is as big as America, they have less arable land and very little natural resources besides coal.

Sounds like we will have even greater increased competition for the remaining fossil fuels, and maybe even conflict in places like Africa and along shipping routes in Southeast Asia.

Also the Pentagon (U.S. military headquarters) is definitely looking at all of this...they published a very large paper on this topic and cite China as one of the greatest potential threats to U.S. security due to energy consumption.

http://chinatrade.foreignpolicyblogs...s-competition/

sources:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/stor...nsumption.html

https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...k/geos/us.html
A big issue with China is, that houses aren't insulated and therefore, one needs lots of energy to heat during winter and lots of energy to cool during summer. In addition, when I lived there, I've seen many stores with their doors wide open and 2 ACs blasting at full force. In my opinion, they could easily curb some of the energy consumtion if they'd built better infrastructure and educate the people.
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  #29  
Old 13.06.2011, 13:56
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Re: China Now Consumes More Energy Than the U.S.

It appears that China is still using 25% of the energy per head compared to the USA.
As China supplies the world with goods that it manufactures, then it is obviously going to consume a lot of energy.
I have that China produced more steel that the next 10 countries do in total (I find that hard to believe actually).
China has been spending fortunes on building its infrastructure and factories to manufacture goods for export; again large amounts of energy will be consumed.
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Old 13.06.2011, 15:47
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Re: China Now Consumes More Energy Than the U.S.

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But is a Honda that was made in Japan really that much better in quality than one that was made in the US? And if your answer is "yes," then why is that? (I'm asking this out of genuine curiosity...).



I definitely agree that many Americans overspend. And I blame this partly on the fact that that the definition of "normal standard of living" has become rather warped in the US and in much of the industrialized world. However, I don't think that Americans really "choose to go into debt," as you said. I think that, sadly, many of them were forced into that situation after losing their jobs, etc. -- especially in the past 10 years.
In the 1970's there was an employee at GM named Joseph Engelberger (google him). He invented something called the robotic assembly line. When the Unions in Detroit called for him “to be hung like a nigger” he took his robotic assembly line from GM and sold it to a very small, and little known, car company in Japan called Toyota.

Robotic assembly lines dont smoke pot, drink beer or make very many mistakes.

But it also comes down to the target market. In the US people would rather have 2 cars in their garage. So they buy 2 low quality cars for $15,000 each. These cars will work for 3 years if they are lucky, with no major incidents. Most europeans choose to have one car. A higher quality car that maybe costs $65,000. That one car lasts them 8 years without incident.

Again it all comes down to Americans looking for short term gratification and visible signs of wealth.

Back to the other subject: "poor" is all relative. When I grew up if you were poor your parents didnt own a car, you didnt have a TV, and you cleaned your tennis-shoes with a tooth brush to make them last longer. You shopped at the second hand store. When we got our welfare cheque we didnt use it to pay down our credit card bills. I dont think that the truly poor are affected by higher energy costs. They are more resourceful than some middle-class banker who thinks its below him to burn garbage in his garage to keep warm.

Higher prices for energy make us all more productive. If the airlines cant make a profit with oil at $200 per barrel they will be forced to invent more efficient engines. If people cant afford to fill up thier SUV with $200 oil then they will be forced to buy a prius. Higher prices are the answer even if its painful. Thats how efficiency is pushed through.

Americans do choose to go into debt. We all do. Its called savings and being humble. Not borrowing and being arrogant.

Not long ago America was more than the some of its parts. Now, its less. Around WWII Americans were proud as a people but modest as individuals. Fewer than 2 people in 10 said 'yes' when asked "are you a very important person". Today? More than 7 out of 10 respond 'yes' to the same question. Where Americans once thought of themselves as collectively strong, they now regard themselves as individually entitled.

But they have to show it. And they do this by buying things they cant afford, through credit.
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Old 13.06.2011, 16:04
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Re: China Now Consumes More Energy Than the U.S.

[QUOTE=Zuger;1226908]Robotic assembly lines dont smoke pot, drink beer or make very many mistakes.

Well, I was actually born and spent most of my life just outside of Detroit (Toledo to be exact), and I have known many people who worked for GM and other US auto mfrs, and I can assure you that the majority of them did, in fact, NOT smoke pot and were not alcoholics, etc. And I certainly can't blame any US auto worker for ever having feared losing his/her job to robotics.

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But it also comes down to the target market. In the US people would rather have 2 cars in their garage. So they buy 2 low quality cars for $15,000 each. These cars will work for 3 years if they are lucky, with no major incidents. Most europeans choose to have one car. A higher quality car that maybe costs $65,000. That one car lasts them 8 years without incident.

Again it all comes down to Americans looking for short term gratification and visible signs of wealth.
But if they really were all wanting "visible signs of wealth," then wouldn't they be buying the more expensive cars, as you say that Europeans do? The people I know from the US that do still drive US autos (e.g. Fords, etc.) usually do so because they claim its their way of trying to help support the US auto industry.
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Old 13.06.2011, 16:28
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Re: China Now Consumes More Energy Than the U.S.

Well, I was actually born and spent most of my life just outside of Detroit (Toledo to be exact), and I have known many people who worked for GM and other US auto mfrs, and I can assure you that the majority of them did, in fact, NOT smoke pot and were not alcoholics, etc. And I certainly can't blame any US auto worker for ever having feared losing his/her job to robotics.



But if they really were all wanting "visible signs of wealth," then wouldn't they be buying the more expensive cars, as you say that Europeans do? The people I know from the US that do still drive US autos (e.g. Fords, etc.) usually do so because they claim its their way of trying to help support the US auto industry.[/QUOTE]

Ah, your Toledo Mavericks beat the Miami Lebrons last night in the NBA finals. Congrats.

The problem is this, when your competitor uses robots to make a car and you dont you bankrupt yourself. Robots dont need to be paid a pension. They dont strike. They can work 24/7.

GM, Ford, Chrysler..... Dead..... All three of them. By 2025 their pension shortfall will be great than their entire combined earnings, if you were to add up all of their profits from the last century, still wouldnt be enough to pay for the shortfall. Toyota doesnt have the problem. WHen the Big 3 are out of business, Toyota will still be making cars.

Unemployment is the key to progress. Countries with low unemployment rates dont have new businesses, new inventions, nor large varieties of new goods. People are too busy working thier crappy 9-5 job.

So yes, unemployment isnt great. But people dont rust and crumble. They find other ways to survive. They learn to invent robots rather than scold them.

Why does anyone need 2 cars? Quality over quantity. US cars dont last. Every year we take several clients on the Autobahn and take turns driving pretty cars of every make and model. The first three years we did this, without exception, atleast one brand new US car broke down. Last year we stopped using US cars all together.

Why not spend $65k and know that your car is going to last? Rather than $15k for 2 cars you have to constantly worry about?

The US is trying to build products that compete with Chinese goods. Yet they pay their workers German salaries? Thats a blueprint for disaster.
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  #33  
Old 13.06.2011, 16:53
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Re: China Now Consumes More Energy Than the U.S.

Speaking of green energy I've realised green energy isn't that much more expensive than nuclear powered energy in my region at least. I'm waiting for my next energy bill to check the difference but according to my local energy provider water energy is 0.92 cent/ kWh or 7% more expensive than the cheapest product which is made of 20% water and I assume 80% nuclear energy. That dosen't seem like that much but I'm waiting till my next bill arrives to see how much that effectively makes. Maybe you should check out your energy provider and see what products are on offer. Anyway since 20% of my current energy comes from renewable energy I'm assuming this part is used for the internet and computer which allows me to complain on here

Last edited by yjt; 13.06.2011 at 16:59. Reason: added price increase in percent
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  #34  
Old 13.06.2011, 16:54
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Re: China Now Consumes More Energy Than the U.S.

Well, I'm certainly not arguing against you that US cars are shit. I myself would prefer a Honda or a BMW over a Ford any day.
But I guess I just never really understood WHY US autos are so lacking in quality, compared to Japanese autos, for example. I still don't think it's really due to pot-smoking or alcoholism, but perhaps you do have a good point when making it an issue of human precision versus machine precision.
I remember growing up in the 80s and hearing horror stories about prophecies of people losing their jobs to robots. And it's quite sad to see that prophecy now turning to reality, particularly when most of these people have skill sets that can't really be applied elsewhere. My heart really goes out to all these people who spent their entire adult lives working for the US auto industry and are now faced with the possible reality of never receiving the pensions they were once promised.

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Old 13.06.2011, 17:34
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Re: China Now Consumes More Energy Than the U.S.

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My heart really goes out to all these people who spent their entire adult lives working for the US auto industry and are now faced with the possible reality of never receiving the pensions they were once promised.
Its the Unions fault. They should have started to slowly integrate robots from the 1960's until today. Now instead of a steady and slow transition its going to turn into a huge earthquake event. You cant put off change. Unions have promised too much. In my life I have found its better to under-promise and over-deliver as opposed to vise-versa. The Unions should be shut down.
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Old 18.06.2011, 14:13
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Re: China Now Consumes More Energy Than the U.S.

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Are you implying there's a threat of war due to energy consumption?
I would think a major war is looming for the future for whatever reason, but directly connected to China's growth. Lets just watch as their military catches up and how their aggressivity level will equally increase. As it is, none of their Asian neighbors likes them as they are greatly threatened by them which is not good for the future. The benefit in all this is that even with a mightly Chinese army/economy rivalling and even overtaking the U.S., most of the world would be allied against the Chinese and the outcome would be very different from the Japanses invasion of the pacific in 1939.
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Old 18.06.2011, 15:41
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Re: China Now Consumes More Energy Than the U.S.

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I would think a major war is looming for the future for whatever reason, but directly connected to China's growth. Lets just watch as their military catches up and how their aggressivity level will equally increase. As it is, none of their Asian neighbors likes them as they are greatly threatened by them which is not good for the future. The benefit in all this is that even with a mightly Chinese army/economy rivalling and even overtaking the U.S., most of the world would be allied against the Chinese and the outcome would be very different from the Japanses invasion of the pacific in 1939.
Are you implying that elderly Chinese will be willing to first give up their pension for the Bankrupt Chinese government to fund a war, and second for these same elderly Chinese to actually be willing to fight? Perhaps you should look at the demographics of China first.

There will always be war. But the US will just destroy this elderly society economically. You can re-read the rest of the stuff in the thread to get an idea of what they could do.
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Old 18.06.2011, 16:38
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Re: China Now Consumes More Energy Than the U.S.

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I would think a major war is looming for the future for whatever reason, but directly connected to China's growth. Lets just watch as their military catches up and how their aggressivity level will equally increase. As it is, none of their Asian neighbors likes them as they are greatly threatened by them which is not good for the future. The benefit in all this is that even with a mightly Chinese army/economy rivalling and even overtaking the U.S., most of the world would be allied against the Chinese and the outcome would be very different from the Japanses invasion of the pacific in 1939.
More like the rise of Germany during WWII without the genocidal manic twist...trying to carve itself out a piece of space that is limited due to developing late with all it's neighbors afraid.

In some ways East and Southeast Asia is like Europe in a security-sense 100 years ago. The big difference is the presence of America in the region, which helps to equalize things a bit, which is why many of China's neighbors are trying to form tighter security arrangements with the United States (including Japan, South Korea, Vietnam, Philippines, Indonesia...)
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