Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12.06.2011, 13:51
AmericanGotWorkVisa's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Zug
Posts: 363
Groaned at 51 Times in 30 Posts
Thanked 380 Times in 157 Posts
AmericanGotWorkVisa has slipped a little
China Now Consumes More Energy Than the U.S.

But remember China has about 1.3 billion people and America has about 305 million, so China is about 4X bigger.

As far as income...GDP per capita (PPP) in China is

US$7,600, the U.S. is $47,200, so the U.S. is 6Xs wealthier.

A lot of economics who look at commodities are not even sure there are enough fossil fuels in the world if the average Chinese wants to live at an American standard (especially concerning automobiles, etc)...and although China is as big as America, they have less arable land and very little natural resources besides coal.

Sounds like we will have even greater increased competition for the remaining fossil fuels, and maybe even conflict in places like Africa and along shipping routes in Southeast Asia.

Also the Pentagon (U.S. military headquarters) is definitely looking at all of this...they published a very large paper on this topic and cite China as one of the greatest potential threats to U.S. security due to energy consumption.

http://chinatrade.foreignpolicyblogs...s-competition/

sources:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/stor...nsumption.html

https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...k/geos/us.html
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12.06.2011, 13:53
olygirl's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: d' Innerschwiiz
Posts: 7,756
Groaned at 419 Times in 282 Posts
Thanked 18,265 Times in 5,656 Posts
olygirl has a reputation beyond reputeolygirl has a reputation beyond reputeolygirl has a reputation beyond reputeolygirl has a reputation beyond reputeolygirl has a reputation beyond reputeolygirl has a reputation beyond repute
Re: China Now Consumes More Energy Than the U.S.

Quote:
View Post
Also the Pentagon (U.S. military headquarters) is definitely looking at all of this...they published a very large paper on this topic and cite China as one of the greatest potential threats to U.S. security due to energy consumption.
Are you implying there's a threat of war due to energy consumption?
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12.06.2011, 13:58
cannut's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: canada
Posts: 6,913
Groaned at 182 Times in 142 Posts
Thanked 6,191 Times in 3,404 Posts
cannut has a reputation beyond reputecannut has a reputation beyond reputecannut has a reputation beyond reputecannut has a reputation beyond reputecannut has a reputation beyond reputecannut has a reputation beyond repute
Re: China Now Consumes More Energy Than the U.S.

Quote:
View Post
Are you implying there's a threat of war due to energy consumption?
There is not enough Energy to go to war , including fuel
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12.06.2011, 13:59
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 14,953
Groaned at 295 Times in 199 Posts
Thanked 19,026 Times in 8,002 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Re: China Now Consumes More Energy Than the U.S.

'consumes'? who is the final consumer here? if china is just making stuff which is finally consumed in the 'US', then china may well be where the energy is expended (and the pollution left) but the consumption, i would argue, would more likely be in the US...
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank Phil_MCR for this useful post:
  #5  
Old 12.06.2011, 14:06
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: China Now Consumes More Energy Than the U.S.

Got this off of a marketing sheet for a hedge fund thats betting on a China collapse.


Building What No One Can Afford Instills Confidence!

Quiz time: Who is the wealthiest country out of these four…

a) Botswana
b) China
c) Angola
d) Belarus

Most of you will have answered that China is the wealthiest. And the reason why? You have been conned into only seeing the façade.








When we compare a simple picture of China’s commercial centers with those of the other countries mentioned above we obviously have to think China is the richest.

But it’s not. In fact, it’s the very last on the list.

a) Botswana (US$7,600)
b) China (US$4,380)
c) Angola (US$4,500)
d) Belarus (US$5,800)

The Chinese are building infrastructure for a society where each person should earn $50,000 per year. Yet the average person only makes $4,380. When you think of Belarus you think of mail-order brides. When you think of Angola you think of people with no limbs. And when you think of Botswana you think of spear throwing savages.

Yet they are all richer, per capita, than China.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #6  
Old 12.06.2011, 14:17
AmericanGotWorkVisa's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Zug
Posts: 363
Groaned at 51 Times in 30 Posts
Thanked 380 Times in 157 Posts
AmericanGotWorkVisa has slipped a little
Re: China Now Consumes More Energy Than the U.S.

Quote:
View Post
Are you implying there's a threat of war due to energy consumption?
Not in the near future, but if we can't make alternative fuels make up the difference with loss of fossil fuels, I'm quite certain their will be war over oil and gas, hell I believe there already is, we just make up other reasons, like "freedom and democracy"...

As I said, the Pentagon thinks there is potential for conflict, good enough for me, they have the guns and missiles.
Reply With Quote
This user groans at AmericanGotWorkVisa for this post:
  #7  
Old 12.06.2011, 14:20
Lejoker's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lausanne
Posts: 576
Groaned at 20 Times in 12 Posts
Thanked 285 Times in 181 Posts
Lejoker has no particular reputation at present
Re: China Now Consumes More Energy Than the U.S.

The world is running out of fuel...just phone Shell if you think we still have plenty out there.

I'm still pondering over which will spark a conflict, fuel or water??
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12.06.2011, 14:25
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: China Now Consumes More Energy Than the U.S.

Quote:
View Post
Not in the near future, but if we can't make alternative fuels make up the difference with loss of fossil fuels, I'm quite certain their will be war over oil and gas, hell I believe there already is, we just make up other reasons, like "freedom and democracy"...

As I said, the Pentagon thinks there is potential for conflict, good enough for me, they have the guns and missiles.
At $200 per barrel only governments will be able to afford it and that will kill demand from people like you and me, and make it very profitable to produce even more oil from tar-sands etc. Price is everything.

But Its not likely there will be a war. There arent enough Chinese to fight. They have so many elderly people that they cant afford to fight a war and keep their retired population above the poverty line. They have a pension short-fall that dwarfs their FX reserves. Starting in 2012 the the "Working Age Population" who pay into the Chinese pension system will start shrinking as a huge lot of them start to retire.

The Chinese are not that dumb to get into a fight with such a large liability that their population presents. Thats why they are in a rush to build things now because in 5 years they simply wont have the capacity.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #9  
Old 12.06.2011, 18:58
AmericanGotWorkVisa's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Zug
Posts: 363
Groaned at 51 Times in 30 Posts
Thanked 380 Times in 157 Posts
AmericanGotWorkVisa has slipped a little
Re: China Now Consumes More Energy Than the U.S.

Quote:
View Post
At $200 per barrel only governments will be able to afford it and that will kill demand from people like you and me, and make it very profitable to produce even more oil from tar-sands etc. Price is everything.

But Its not likely there will be a war. There arent enough Chinese to fight. They have so many elderly people that they cant afford to fight a war and keep their retired population above the poverty line. They have a pension short-fall that dwarfs their FX reserves. Starting in 2012 the the "Working Age Population" who pay into the Chinese pension system will start shrinking as a huge lot of them start to retire.

The Chinese are not that dumb to get into a fight with such a large liability that their population presents. Thats why they are in a rush to build things now because in 5 years they simply wont have the capacity.
If gas prices go up so high that it is profitable to get oil out of tar-sand that is overall a killer for the world economy, that for over a century has relied on cheap oil, and as yet there is no replacement. No one wants things to get that bad, not for their country. America and China are the twin centers of the global economy and I can tell you for a fact that oil prices that high indefinitely will kill the domestic economy, which will also kill China's economy, as China is depend on oil and the U.S....it will also seriously hurt Japan, which imports most of ALL OF THIER oil, etc. You are talking about a Global Depression.

I can't agree with that. I don't think China is looking for a war, because of reasons you mentioned, and more, but they are building ports and bases in the South China Sea, Pakistan, Myanmar, the Maldives, Cambodia, etc for a reason. They are also retrofitting one Russian aircraft carrier and building another right now...

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strateg...-pakistan.html

Why? To protect oil routes in case of conflict at sea. At the same time they are increasing over-land oil and gas pipelines from Russia and through Pakistan into Central Asia.

They want all these assets protected in case of conflict in North Korea or Taiwan. Do not underestimate nationalism.

China is not as stable as people think and the last thing they want is to look weak. China has backed down to the U.S. over Taiwan twice (1960's and 1990's) and I doubt something like that will happen again.

They are getting aggressive at sea with Japan, Vietnam, and the Philippines over areas of the South China Sea and East China Sea that are believed to have oil and gas...they are getting so aggressive, many of their neighbors are seeking stronger ties with the U.S.

http://chinatrade.foreignpolicyblogs...ast-china-sea/

Unfortunately wars or conflicts often happen because nations get too close to the edge to pull back, not because they actually planned a war.

I personally think the chances of war are low, at this point because China could not win. However, when they get missiles that can knock out America's aircraft carriers, they get more military bases, etc. Well...

Look at the area China is trying to claim in Asia, it is pretty insane, historically most of this area was never governed by china, but since it was on Qing Dynasty maps...well... they want this area to push America out of the region and to control the trade routes with America allies and to be able to blackmail their neighbors. It is a smart practical move, one i would try as well, but...

Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank AmericanGotWorkVisa for this useful post:
  #10  
Old 12.06.2011, 19:03
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 14,953
Groaned at 295 Times in 199 Posts
Thanked 19,026 Times in 8,002 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Re: China Now Consumes More Energy Than the U.S.

Quote:
View Post
Look at the area China is trying to claim in Asia, it is pretty insane, historically most of this area was never governed by china, but since it was on Qing Dynasty maps...well... they want this area to push America out of the region and to control the trade routes with America allies and to be able to blackmail their neighbors. It is a smart practical move, one i would try as well, but...
but it wont work, if you look at where the US are based and which areas they already control, then China hasn't got a chance. The US has recognised China as an economic threat a long time ago (if not a military threat) and have systematically encircled them.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Phil_MCR for this useful post:
  #11  
Old 12.06.2011, 20:01
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 3,848
Groaned at 78 Times in 57 Posts
Thanked 4,118 Times in 2,220 Posts
rainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond repute
Re: China Now Consumes More Energy Than the U.S.

Quote:
View Post
If gas prices go up so high that it is profitable to get oil out of tar-sand that is overall a killer for the world economy, that for over a century has relied on cheap oil, and as yet there is no replacement.
Exactly.
But the reality is: oil is a non-renewable source of energy (unless you think in geologic time-spans - and even then, it needs certain conditions that are no longer met by today's climate).
Yet, we use it as if it grew on trees (which we also have too little...).

AFAIK, consumption is even increasing YOY, despite that fact that peak oil is probably already behind us (if not, then it's _very_ close).

What does that mean?
I do not know.
But I'm really frightened, honestly.
I don't really envision a Mad-Max like world - but OTOH, as history has shown, we've only marginally matured over our neolithic cousins.
Just look at some footage from the Kathrina-chaos, or think what could happen is Greece really defaults (and then Spain, Portugal etc.).
People are not going to sit in their (then cold) flats and stare into their (then black - no power) TVs.
But instead of blaming themselves, because they themselves voted the politicians who didn't do anything into power again and again for thirty or more years (they didn't do anything, because that's exactly what we told them to do), they'll shift the blame to the current government, or some foreign government, or some scape-goat ethnic group of the day.

When you're hungry and cold, there's little room for rational thinking.

BTW: AFAIK, exploiting tar-sand for oil is extremely energy-consuming and produces lots of hazardous by-products that need to be disposed of in a safe way. I have a feeling that those resources are currently only used to prop up balance-sheets for oil-companies...

The most positive outcome as I see it: once oil prices go that high, we will see a different world-trade and we will have to view the economy as a whole differently.
Clearly, we will be "poorer", but we might gain in other areas (less pollution, less traffic).
We also need new jobs, of course, as our current ones are most likely going to disappear....
But maybe we don't need to worry, because we ourselves are going to disappear. I don't have numbers at hand, but without modern agriculture (tractors, harvesters, phosphate-based fertilizers (BTW: did you know there is a peak phosphate, too?)), this world can certainly not feed 7 billion people. Or maybe it could, but then 5 or 6 of these 7 would have to work in the primary sector...
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank rainer_d for this useful post:
  #12  
Old 12.06.2011, 20:04
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: China Now Consumes More Energy Than the U.S.

I dont think China is a threat. I find it funny that people think China is the tail wagging the US dog because they own US Bonds. If the Ben Bernank wanted to with China it would be easy. There is only about $60 trillion of USD's ever created. If he were to print $600tr that would make the Chinese worthless.

The Chinese (unlike the Germans of WWII) import their raw materials, including food. A US embargo would destroy China, socially, militarilly, financially, and politically in 3 months.

Infact let me be clear. I can live without oil. I cant live without food. The US is the Saudi Arabia of food. If it wanted to form its own OPEC it would make China into its submissive cell mate (think Dry Guillotine, Momo). Just with a simple ban on Chinese imports the entire Chinese banking system would collapse in 3 months.

I agree that anything can happen when life long politicians start having the proverbial "my dick is bigger than yours contest".... But China has much more to lose.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #13  
Old 12.06.2011, 20:21
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 14,953
Groaned at 295 Times in 199 Posts
Thanked 19,026 Times in 8,002 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Re: China Now Consumes More Energy Than the U.S.

Quote:
View Post
I dont think China is a threat. I find it funny that people think China is the tail wagging the US dog because they own US Bonds. If the Ben Bernank wanted to with China it would be easy. There is only about $60 trillion of USD's ever created. If he were to print $600tr that would make the Chinese worthless.

The Chinese (unlike the Germans of WWII) import their raw materials, including food. A US embargo would destroy China, socially, militarilly, financially, and politically in 3 months.

Infact let me be clear. I can live without oil. I cant live without food. The US is the Saudi Arabia of food. If it wanted to form its own OPEC it would make China into its submissive cell mate (think Dry Guillotine, Momo). Just with a simple ban on Chinese imports the entire Chinese banking system would collapse in 3 months.

I agree that anything can happen when life long politicians start having the proverbial "my dick is bigger than yours contest".... But China has much more to lose.
Agreed. China is busy polluting what little water reserves it has and collecting the rubbish from the rest of the world.

Militarily, they cannot compete with the US (and the Iraq war must have been a big wake up call for them given that their military looked a lot like that of Iraq at the time).

Politically, they are barely managing to hold the country together during this boom period. Lord knows what will happen when the collapse comes to China and everybody starts rioting.

As well as that, all the work that the ordinary worker has done in 16 hour shifts in the factory for the last decade hasn't been cashed out, but instead is held as IOUs from the US who don't have a hope in hell of paying. That part of it which didn't go as profits to US companies in the first place.

For a country that does seem to forward plan, I'm really surprised by how little protection they are given to water pollution given it is a strategic resource.
__________________
By replying to this post, you hereby grant Phil_MCR a royalty-free license to use, in any way, anything posted by you on the internet. If you do not accept, stop using EF and delete your account.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12.06.2011, 20:26
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: China Now Consumes More Energy Than the U.S.

Quote:
View Post
Agreed. China is busy polluting what little water reserves it has and collecting the rubbish from the rest of the world.
.
An Oldie But A Goodie

http://www.platinum.com.au/images/water.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 12.06.2011, 20:34
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 14,953
Groaned at 295 Times in 199 Posts
Thanked 19,026 Times in 8,002 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Re: China Now Consumes More Energy Than the U.S.

Quote:
View Post
Cheers. I looked into agricultural commodities in 2006 but didn't invest in the end. Would have been a winner...
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Phil_MCR for this useful post:
  #16  
Old 12.06.2011, 21:06
Pancakes's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Zurich-ish
Posts: 5,168
Groaned at 290 Times in 207 Posts
Thanked 10,930 Times in 4,111 Posts
Pancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: China Now Consumes More Energy Than the U.S.

I'm from the US, and I find it absolutely pathetic that the US dares to blame China for consuming too much energy. One of the posters above made a very good point to mention that much of the energy consumed in China is probably due to the fact that it manufacturers so many goods for US consumption.
I can't help but feel as though it's the US's way of trying to deflect the blame away from itself and onto China. I read somewhere recently that the #1 consumer of oil in the US is the US military. I only wish that the UN, etc. would put more pressure on the US to curb its own energy consumption. Every time I go back to the States to visit, I find myself continuously noticing and realizing what an "energy whore" the US really is, much of which I blame on its "capitalism is king" mentality. I remember being in a grocery store and being blown away by the fact that this store has SIX freezers designated solely to the various brands and types of frozen waffles!
Anyways... sorry to rant. I just get so frustrated when the US continuously threatens other countries with its military but rarely seems to address the problems that it itself has created and is perpetuating.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 12.06.2011, 21:39
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: China Now Consumes More Energy Than the U.S.

Quote:
View Post
I'm from the US, and I find it absolutely pathetic that the US dares to blame China for consuming too much energy. One of the posters above made a very good point to mention that much of the energy consumed in China is probably due to the fact that it manufacturers so many goods for US consumption.
I can't help but feel as though it's the US's way of trying to deflect the blame away from itself and onto China. I read somewhere recently that the #1 consumer of oil in the US is the US military. I only wish that the UN, etc. would put more pressure on the US to curb its own energy consumption. Every time I go back to the States to visit, I find myself continuously noticing and realizing what an "energy whore" the US really is, much of which I blame on its "capitalism is king" mentality. I remember being in a grocery store and being blown away by the fact that this store has SIX freezers designated solely to the various brands and types of frozen waffles!
Anyways... sorry to rant. I just get so frustrated when the US continuously threatens other countries with its military but rarely seems to address the problems that it itself has created and is perpetuating.

You need a hug.... From a fluffy animal..... Just a tad of bitterness here.

If youre so worried about energy consumption then I would encourage you to stop using the internet and the trains and the shower and the.... everything.

Its easier said than done and typically the loudest anti-energy people are the biggest users. http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Globa...2906888&page=1

Higher prices are infact the answer, but that cuts into consumption, which cuts into tax revenues! So you need to blame your wonderful president. He and Timmy Geithner.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #18  
Old 12.06.2011, 21:53
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 14,953
Groaned at 295 Times in 199 Posts
Thanked 19,026 Times in 8,002 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Re: China Now Consumes More Energy Than the U.S.

Quote:
View Post
You need a hug.... From a fluffy animal..... Just a tad of bitterness here.

If youre so worried about energy consumption then I would encourage you to stop using the internet and the trains and the shower and the.... everything.

Its easier said than done and typically the loudest anti-energy people are the biggest users. http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Globa...2906888&page=1

Higher prices are infact the answer, but that cuts into consumption, which cuts into tax revenues! So you need to blame your wonderful president. He and Timmy Geithner.
well, i think the US can particularly be a lot more efficient. the huge cars they drive are real gas guzzlers, this is made worse by the fact that americans commute huge distances.

higher prices will force us all to change. but it is a shame that we can be more efficient already without a great deal of impact on our quality of living. just simple things like turning off appliances when not in use etc. would help.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Phil_MCR for this useful post:
  #19  
Old 12.06.2011, 21:59
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Zurich
Posts: 155
Groaned at 8 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 125 Times in 66 Posts
Mary has no particular reputation at present
Re: China Now Consumes More Energy Than the U.S.

Quote:
View Post
Got this off of a marketing sheet for a hedge fund thats betting on a China collapse.


Building What No One Can Afford Instills Confidence!

Quiz time: Who is the wealthiest country out of these four…

a) Botswana
b) China
c) Angola
d) Belarus

Most of you will have answered that China is the wealthiest. And the reason why? You have been conned into only seeing the façade.








When we compare a simple picture of China’s commercial centers with those of the other countries mentioned above we obviously have to think China is the richest.

But it’s not. In fact, it’s the very last on the list.

a) Botswana (US$7,600)
b) China (US$4,380)
c) Angola (US$4,500)
d) Belarus (US$5,800)

The Chinese are building infrastructure for a society where each person should earn $50,000 per year. Yet the average person only makes $4,380. When you think of Belarus you think of mail-order brides. When you think of Angola you think of people with no limbs. And when you think of Botswana you think of spear throwing savages.

Yet they are all richer, per capita, than China.
'Spear throwing savages'..give me a break!!!Botswana is a
relatively prosperous country in Southern Africa.There are many
educated people there and your stereotype is not on.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Mary for this useful post:
This user groans at Mary for this post:
  #20  
Old 12.06.2011, 22:08
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: China Now Consumes More Energy Than the U.S.

Quote:
View Post
'Spear throwing savages'..give me a break!!!Botswana is a
relatively prosperous country in Southern Africa.There are many
educated people there and your stereotype is not on.
Go to Perth and tell them you have a diamond dig in Botswana. They will ask you what "Security Service" you use (mercenaries) to protect your claim.

I agree, its a great place to live. And tame compared to some other African countries we do business in. But unless some one has been there the pictures they conjure up is that of Zamunda.

But I guess you missed the entire fuq'n point of my missive? The point was Botswana is more prosperous than China, yet people think that China is advanced and that Botswana isnt.

In your haste to complain you have actually agreed with what the statement was saying.

Hooray!
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT +2. The time now is 17:25.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0