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  #241  
Old 15.07.2011, 18:50
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Re: Question for Americans: What is it with the South?

There are a couple of observations worth making about these graphs:
  • Source for this data?
  • In order to make your "Education Spending, State by State" chart meaningful in this discussion, you would have to establish that there is a strong correlation between educational spending and educational outcomes, a topic hotly debated by experts in pedagogy. I also note that your chart breaks spending down by relatively small, one thousand dollar increments. I think you should take into account the higher costs of overhead across the country (real estate, teacher salaries etc.) to get an apples-to-apples comparison. If you factor this in, is there really such a big difference in educational spending?
  • Another observation that we should make here is that scale plays a major role when analyzing state-by-state data. The small states with one or two large urban areas (i.e. Rhode Island, Connecticut), rate as higher performers. You note that New York State does not perform as well--because it encompasses a wider geographical expanse than just New York City ( includes the "yokels" in upstate).
  • Last, there are plenty of poor white people in the United States, both in the north and south, and yes, minorities do represent a larger percentage of the poor in the entire country. Minorities represent a larger percentage of the poor in the entire world, probably.


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Here is a chart that I found pertaining to the disparity in the quality of education found between "Northern" and "Southern" states:


I am not from the south only visited a couple of times. I can see how some members are protective of their home state in the south. However there is a general (yes schools vary within the state) difference in the performance of students of the south in comparison to the students of the north. Interestingly enough the above graph correlates pretty closely with the data on educational expenditures from state to state. Again here the south clearly spends less on its pupils than the north.




Further lets look at poverty state by state: Although NY does not do well, the overwhelming amount of states that have the highest poverty rates are in the south




I won't tackle the subject of racism in the south because I know very little about it, other than from what I have read, and heard from others. However, when I visited the south from what I saw there was a strong correlation between being a minority and being impoverished. That does not mean that there are not mixed middle-class neighborhoods, its just an observation.

Amogles, I don't know if you like food, but the south is absolutely great when it comes to cuisine. Try sweet tea, waffles and fried chicken with some collard greens, hoppin' john, sweat potato mash w/marshmallows (yep you read right), shrimp & grits, biscuits & gravy and also do yourself a favor and go to a good BBQ. (It's best to ask the locals when you're down there about what place to go to.) Also if you have the courage try a shot of bourbon with a chaser of pickle juice. If that does not leave an impression I don't know what will. On the other hand if you are a history buff, going to Atlanta to see King's house and read up on the battle of Atlanta is also pretty special.
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  #242  
Old 15.07.2011, 19:28
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Re: Question for Americans: What is it with the South?

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There are a couple of observations worth making about these graphs:
  • Source for this data?
  • In order to make your "Education Spending, State by State" chart meaningful in this discussion, you would have to establish that there is a strong correlation between educational spending and educational outcomes, a topic hotly debated by experts in pedagogy. I also note that your chart breaks spending down by relatively small, one thousand dollar increments. I think you should take into account the higher costs of overhead across the country (real estate, teacher salaries etc.) to get an apples-to-apples comparison. If you factor this in, is there really such a big difference in educational spending?
  • Another observation that we should make here is that scale plays a major role when analyzing state-by-state data. The small states with one or two large urban areas (i.e. Rhode Island, Connecticut), rate as higher performers. You note that New York State does not perform as well--because it encompasses a wider geographical expanse than just New York City ( includes the "yokels" in upstate).
  • Last, there are plenty of poor white people in the United States, both in the north and south, and yes, minorities do represent a larger percentage of the poor in the entire country. Minorities represent a larger percentage of the poor in the entire world, probably.
Tearley, first off you criticize my data without providing any of your own to disprove it. Maybe that qualifies as "persuasive" in the south but it certainly won't impress us "Yokels" in the north. For any point of your argument to be taken seriously I recommend you provide graphs of your own to back up all of those hypotheticals, ahem sorry, valid points you made in opposition to my post. Let me give you some issue statements on which you can work on:

1. Break down for me in each state, all of the overhead, union costs, school supply costs by state and then make a comparison disproving the graph I provided.

2. Provide your own graph which equates cost of living in the southern states and northern states. Then analyze whether or not there is still a disparity in the poverty rates between north and south.

3. Finally, why don't you provide a graph showing the poverty rates among whites and blacks in the south.

Oh, and btw try not to use Fox News or Drudge Report as sources (probably the hardest requirement for you).
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  #243  
Old 15.07.2011, 20:14
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Re: Question for Americans: What is it with the South?

[QUOTE
Quote:
=tearley;1266054]There are a couple of observations worth making about these graphs:
  • Source for this data?
  • In order to make your "Education Spending, State by State" chart meaningful in this discussion, you would have to establish that there is a strong correlation between educational spending and educational outcomes, a topic hotly debated by experts in pedagogy. I also note that your chart breaks spending down by relatively small, one thousand dollar increments. I think you should take into account the higher costs of overhead across the country (real estate, teacher salaries etc.) to get an apples-to-apples comparison. If you factor this in, is there really such a big difference in educational spending?
  • It depends on how the spending is carried out. If you have Bush awarding the money to according to religious preference and taking Title VII away and messing with Title

  • Another observation that we should make here is that scale plays a major role when analyzing state-by-state data. The small states with one or two large urban areas (i.e. Rhode Island, Connecticut), rate as higher performers. You note that New York State does not perform as well--because it encompasses a wider geographical expanse than just New York City ( includes the "yokels" in upstate).
  • Last, there are plenty of poor white people in the United States, both in the north and south, and yes, minorities do represent a larger percentage of the poor in the entire country. Minorities represent a larger percentage of the poor in the entire world, probably.
[/QUOTE]

It all depends on how funding is carried out.

Generally most parochial schools are less well-funded. George Bush's presidency saw a rise in the number of parochial schools especially in the south.



Quote:
the key difference being that parochial systems are largely supported by donations to the parish while state schools are funded by taxes. Out-of-pocket costs to the student attending a parochial school are usually much greater than an equivalent public school, which is taxpayer subsidized, though the actual cost on a per-student basis is on average nearly double for public schools.[12] Although, it costs parents much more for their children to attend, teachers are generally paid less than those at an equivalent public school.[13] For example, in 1998, they were paid about 45% less than public school teachers.
Parochial schools are far more prevalent on the South this often results in

Quote:
A 2010 study found that 56% of children in religious schools had cheated on a test, compared with 33% of children at non-religious independent schools, and 60% for all schools.[10
There is also disparity in funding with regards to the particular denomination:

Quote:
Critics of the OFBCI, including Americans United for Separation of Church and State and the American Civil Liberties Union, assert that it violated the Establishment Clause by using tax money to fund religion. They also argued that faith-based initiatives were used as part of electoral strategies to yield more votes for Bush and the GOP.
Jeb Bush has a new southern formula out which may be better as it includes on-line courses,which should work great in the schools/homes that have adequate technology. Otherwise the gap between the have and have-nots just increases.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...2zsH_blog.html

Title one needs reworking, Title VII ( scrapped by Bush) needs revisiting. basically educators should decide where the money goes, not administrators with political agendas.

All quotes from Wikipedia
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  #244  
Old 15.07.2011, 20:14
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Re: Question for Americans: What is it with the South?

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Tearley, first off you criticize my data without providing any of your own to disprove it. Maybe that qualifies as "persuasive" in the south but it certainly won't impress us "Yokels" in the north. For any point of your argument to be taken seriously I recommend you provide graphs of your own to back up all of those hypotheticals, ahem sorry, valid points you made in opposition to my post. Let me give you some issue statements on which you can work on:

1. Break down for me in each state, all of the overhead, union costs, school supply costs by state and then make a comparison disproving the graph I provided.

2. Provide your own graph which equates cost of living in the southern states and northern states. Then analyze whether or not there is still a disparity in the poverty rates between north and south.

3. Finally, why don't you provide a graph showing the poverty rates among whites and blacks in the south.
And here, we see examples of North vs South insults and attitudes.

Cbass, your maps are interesting but please, may I ask, what is the source? I think that's among the things that Tearly started out asking...


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Oh, and btw try not to use Fox News or Drudge Report as sources (probably the hardest requirement for you).
That's not necessary at all. Perhaps you take umbrage to the "yokel" bit but there certainly are poor White country folk up North, just as there are in the South - as well as poor Black in both areas as well.
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  #245  
Old 15.07.2011, 20:56
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Re: Question for Americans: What is it with the South?

Sir (or madam),

I did not criticize your data. I merely asked you a polite question about the source of the data.

I did, however, level an indirect critique on your analysis of this data, or using such data as proof of your claims. Before I would seek to disprove your claims, you should first do the work and prove them. I would not fire upon a target that does not exist.

Your comment that I should not use Fox News as a source amuses me for two reasons. 1) You betray the possession of some stereotyped ideas about southerners. 2) I have been called many things in my life, but never a conservative (socialist or communist, absolutely).

Cheers.



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Tearley, first off you criticize my data without providing any of your own to disprove it. Maybe that qualifies as "persuasive" in the south but it certainly won't impress us "Yokels" in the north. For any point of your argument to be taken seriously I recommend you provide graphs of your own to back up all of those hypotheticals, ahem sorry, valid points you made in opposition to my post. Let me give you some issue statements on which you can work on:

1. Break down for me in each state, all of the overhead, union costs, school supply costs by state and then make a comparison disproving the graph I provided.

2. Provide your own graph which equates cost of living in the southern states and northern states. Then analyze whether or not there is still a disparity in the poverty rates between north and south.

3. Finally, why don't you provide a graph showing the poverty rates among whites and blacks in the south.

Oh, and btw try not to use Fox News or Drudge Report as sources (probably the hardest requirement for you).

Last edited by tearley; 15.07.2011 at 21:03. Reason: typo
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  #246  
Old 15.07.2011, 21:03
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Re: Question for Americans: What is it with the South?

Peg A,

I did not start it. Calling me a Yokel? Ruffled my feathers. I will play nice everyone else does . Here are the sources.

Spending by state (2007): http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/20...S_GRAPHIC.html

Poverty rates by state (2009):
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2011/06...by-state-2009/

Educational performance chart (2010): I could only make the chart available not the graph:

http://www.nevadaracetothetop.org/pdfs/edweek.pdf
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  #247  
Old 15.07.2011, 21:35
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Re: Question for Americans: What is it with the South?

But isn't that exactly the point, Cbass? You ruffled at my inadvertent label of you as a yokel. Why did you ruffle? Because that has nothing to do with who you are or who the people around you are and is based upon NYC typecasting of upstaters?

I know upstate New Yorkers to be lovely people as my sister went to school there and married a gentleman from that area. But, I think all Americans are wonderful and special in their own way and try not to shove them into labels (especially ones that are based upon stereotype versus reality).

The truth is that these days the big differences are between URBAN and RURAL areas in the U.S. You'll find similar scenes in Northern and Southern cities, Northern and Southern suburbs, and the small towns everywhere. Similar levels of poverty and education etc. The big differences that existed in the north and south at the beginning of the 20th century just aren't there at the turn of the 21st.

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Peg A,

I did not start it. Calling me a Yokel? Ruffled my feathers. I will play nice everyone else does . Here are the sources.

Spending by state (2007): http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/20...S_GRAPHIC.html

Poverty rates by state (2009):
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2011/06...by-state-2009/

Educational performance chart (2010): I could only make the chart available not the graph:

http://www.nevadaracetothetop.org/pdfs/edweek.pdf

Last edited by tearley; 15.07.2011 at 22:03.
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  #248  
Old 15.07.2011, 22:23
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Re: Question for Americans: What is it with the South?

I'm beginning to understand why people from the south consider Yankees irritating, condescending pricks.

Anyway, in case anyone is wondering: I am not a Creationist. Hoppy is talking utter cock.

Again.

As usual.
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  #249  
Old 15.07.2011, 22:43
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Re: Question for Americans: What is it with the South?

Quote:
I'm beginning to understand why people from the south consider Yankees irritating, condescending pricks.
Hoppy is talking utter cock.

Again.

As usual.
All these sexual inuendos-got something on your mind?

Or just for Peg A- my new grammar critic- al'dem sexual inuendos got summat on yer maand?
Or for DB- Midlands- Aye up thar's a rate un! As thay got summut up with thar tackle or wot?

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  #250  
Old 15.07.2011, 22:45
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Re: Question for Americans: What is it with the South?

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But isn't that exactly the point, Cbass? You ruffled at my inadvertent label of you as a yokel. Why did you ruffle? Because that has nothing to do with who you are or who the people around you are and is based upon NYC typecasting of upstaters?

I know upstate New Yorkers to be lovely people as my sister went to school there and married a gentleman from that area. But, I think all Americans are wonderful and special in their own way and try not to shove them into labels (especially ones that are based upon stereotype versus reality).

The truth is that these days the big differences are between URBAN and RURAL areas in the U.S. You'll find similar scenes in Northern and Southern cities, Northern and Southern suburbs, and the small towns everywhere. Similar levels of poverty and education etc. The big differences that existed in the north and south at the beginning of the 20th century just aren't there at the turn of the 21st.
I never meant to spend so much time on this thread. I'll conclude with addressing your post Tearley. I was reading through the thread about the ideas regarding the quality of education and poverty in the south. I became interested in these topics did a little research and posted what I found in my original post to this thread. It was not supposed invoke any sort of stereotype, it was merely a bunch of charts which illustrated what seemed to be accepted opinions on the topics of education and poverty within the US, specifically regarding the south. Tearley you go to great lengths dismissing the graphs I posted and now I have provided you with the links. It would be nice to see if you could agree or provide your own information disproving the graphs. At least then I can learn something if the information I provided was actually wrong.

The reason I was offended by the word "Yokel" is because I purposely tried to be as objective as I could so as not to offend other members. (For example I did not call southerners "Rednecks" the equivalent of "Yokels"). However instead of addressing the information I provided, Tearley you just introduced a couple of variables casted the information I provided aside and blindly restated your opinion with " well there is a lot poverty among all minorities in the US". Now I guess it should not surprise me especially on an EF thread that people will stick to their opinions and do everything they can to just restate their original contention, but it would be nice to receive a response that is objective and provides information that is beneficial to the furtherance of the general discourse.
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Old 15.07.2011, 22:46
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Re: Question for Americans: What is it with the South?

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All these sexual inuendos-got something on your mind?
Nothing: just wondering why you feel the need to stereotype everyone and everything while calling foul at everything you perceive to be racist.

Can you spell hypocrite, Hoppy?
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Old 15.07.2011, 22:58
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Re: Question for Americans: What is it with the South?

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Just make sure that you don't get 'hung-up' with those social justice southerners

At the back of my mind there is always that blood at the root, it wasn't that long ago.



Don't eat Taco bell. I never ever eat Taco Bell. The meat is only really 30% meat


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/health/2011/0...#ixzz1S5nJMTMO

Then there is the rat problem- at least in NY.

http://gothamist.com/2007/04/10/health_departme_3.php
Whatever, thanks for the contribution of that impressive blues song by a really tremendous artist. Just read that the only became 44 (two years less than my brother). Tragic, but what can we do .....
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  #253  
Old 15.07.2011, 23:04
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Re: Question for Americans: What is it with the South?

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Nothing: just wondering why you feel the need to stereotype everyone and everything while calling foul at everything you perceive to be racist.

Can you spell hypocrite, Hoppy?
If you are an English expert, you will know that English is an ever-changing language, like a living organism it reacts to its environment. Unlike many on this forum I am not an English snob, who tries to make out that they are the definitive expert on English Grammar. There are in fact many forms of English and I enjoy them, because I enjoy communicating with people. I enjoy both the form and the content, I enjoy inventiveness in language. I also enjoy how language is expressed non-verbally. Intelligence is not based on a person's ability to speak standard English, in fact it is based on a person's ability to communicate their thoughts and feelings effectively. My favourite from of English is actually the way the Africans express themselves-people from Lagos for example.. It is so beautiful, so melodic with a great vocabulary; it makes you think in different ways.

Perhaps you know better than me spell it out for me-
H Y P O C R I T E
or is it
H Y P E D U P C R I T I C.
sometimes I wonder. Of course you never wonder do you?
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Old 15.07.2011, 23:07
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Re: Question for Americans: What is it with the South?

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...the Africans...
Thank you for proving my point.
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  #255  
Old 15.07.2011, 23:08
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Re: Question for Americans: What is it with the South?

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To the OP, the south is very enjoyable and hospitable.
I also think the food is fantastic. I personally love the Atlantic coast from the outer banks of north Carolina down to northern Florida.
I love Savannah and the island of Ocracoke (Blackbeard the pirate's island) but there are so many neat sights.

...and my all time favorite dish:
http://allrecipes.com/Recipe/north-c...rk/detail.aspx
Food in the Deep South in the 70ies was horrible, in the early 80ies started to be alright, and in the 90ies became really excellent. Sure it already was tremendous in the New Orleans of the 1970ies but was truly excellent in the Myrtle Beach area of the late 1990ies.
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Old 15.07.2011, 23:14
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Re: Question for Americans: What is it with the South?

A little learning is a dangerous thing.
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring.
There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely sobers us again.

--Alexander Pope


Cbass,
I'm reluctant to make assumptions about people, but I think you're probably a student in your twenties. At any rate, you reason like a lot of the students in my classes when I read their essays, and get defensive in similar ways when I ask them good questions designed to help them reason through a problem more effectively.

You started with a conclusion, and then looked for data to support it. You used data like a drunk uses a lamppost--for support rather than illumination. "it was merely a bunch of charts which illustrated what seemed to be accepted opinions on the topics"

I did not go to great lengths to "disprove your charts." I spent 3 minutes explaining why your conclusions don't follow from the charts that you presented. The problem was with your reasoning based upon these charts, not the charts themselves. The most important thing to learn here would not be U.S. demographic data--but how to formulate a cogent argument--and defend it.

So, I find it confusing that you would like for me to provide data that "disprove" your charts when the objections I raised were to the reasoning that you applied to them, and not actually about whether or not they are factually accurate.

Re-read my original critique. Think about it. I believe in you.

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I never meant to spend so much time on this thread. I'll conclude with addressing your post Tearley. I was reading through the thread about the ideas regarding the quality of education and poverty in the south. I became interested in these topics did a little research and posted what I found in my original post to this thread. It was not supposed invoke any sort of stereotype, it was merely a bunch of charts which illustrated what seemed to be accepted opinions on the topics of education and poverty within the US, specifically regarding the south. Tearley you go to great lengths dismissing the graphs I posted and now I have provided you with the links. It would be nice to see if you could agree or provide your own information disproving the graphs. At least then I can learn something if the information I provided was actually wrong.

The reason I was offended by the word "Yokel" is because I purposely tried to be as objective as I could so as not to offend other members. (For example I did not call southerners "Rednecks" the equivalent of "Yokels"). However instead of addressing the information I provided, Tearley you just introduced a couple of variables casted the information I provided aside and blindly restated your opinion with " well there is a lot poverty among all minorities in the US". Now I guess it should not surprise me especially on an EF thread that people will stick to their opinions and do everything they can to just restate their original contention, but it would be nice to receive a response that is objective and provides information that is beneficial to the furtherance of the general discourse.
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Old 15.07.2011, 23:16
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Re: Question for Americans: What is it with the South?

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Food in the Deep South in the 70ies was horrible, in the early 80ies started to be alright, and in the 90ies became really excellent. Sure it already was tremendous in the New Orleans of the 1970ies but was truly excellent in the Myrtle Beach area of the late 1990ies.
Woli, did you try to eat normal food or Southern food? If you found a grungy looking BBQ joint in the 70s, 80s, or 90s, and didn't eat well then you must have tried to pick up the owner's daughter or something. If you were on the coast and didn't have some good seafood then ditto. You gotta remember, deep fried or slow cooked. You want a salad?! Heavy ass dressing with some iceberg lettuce. It ain't about the salad and Michelin ain't gonna give no stars to Maurice Bessinger for his BBQ, but boy, you WILL eat well. Just gotta know where to look.
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Old 15.07.2011, 23:17
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Re: Question for Americans: What is it with the South?

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Something to do with a war or something...?
The SouthWest was either part of the North historically or was liberated by the North from being part of Mexico. The "South" includes areas from south of Potomac over to the Rio Grande.
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Old 15.07.2011, 23:21
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Re: Question for Americans: What is it with the South?

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A little learning is a dangerous thing.
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring.
There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely sobers us again.

--Alexander Pope


Cbass,
I'm reluctant to make assumptions about people, but I think you're probably a student in your twenties. At any rate, you reason like a lot of the students in my classes when I read their essays, and get defensive in similar ways when I ask them good questions designed to help them reason through a problem more effectively.

You started with a conclusion, and then looked for data to support it. You used data like a drunk uses a lamppost--for support rather than illumination. "it was merely a bunch of charts which illustrated what seemed to be accepted opinions on the topics"

I did not go to great lengths to "disprove your charts." I spent 3 minutes explaining why your conclusions don't follow from the charts that you presented. The problem was with your reasoning based upon these charts, not the charts themselves. The most important thing to learn here would not be U.S. demographic data--but how to formulate a cogent argument--and defend it.

So, I find it confusing that you would like for me to provide data that "disprove" your charts when the objections I raised were to the reasoning that you applied to them, and not actually about whether or not they are factually accurate.

Re-read my original critique. Think about it. I believe in you.
You call your student yokels?
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You ruffled at my inadvertent label of you as a yokel.
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Old 15.07.2011, 23:22
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Re: Question for Americans: What is it with the South?

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The "South" includes areas from south of Potomac over to the Rio Grande.
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