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  #261  
Old 16.07.2011, 00:24
hoppy
 
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Re: Question for Americans: What is it with the South?

I would not call my students 'yokels' but reason away this should be interesting!

Teacher teach thyself.

OOps corrected! Allow me to reiterate I would never call my students yokels.

Last edited by hoppy; 16.07.2011 at 01:15.
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  #262  
Old 16.07.2011, 00:25
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Re: Question for Americans: What is it with the South?

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Just to clarify, I'm talking about tipping at the U.S. Starbucks, not the Swiss one.

Maybe this should be a separate thread, but I do wonder about the economic and cultural factors that make the customer service experience so different in Switzerland.

You wonder what would make people feel more invested in their work here. I think that's the problem in the end.
No no no no no no no, it is NOT !! In the 50ies and 60ies you HAD to give 12,5% tip regardless whether the service was good or most extremely lousy. THIS was the reason why the "ancien régime" was abolished.

In Switzerland, people in the "service" expect some tips. And THIS is what makes sense. And not some stupid ceremony of being forced into giving "tip" for some most detestable service provided as YOU apparently still would like to have me forced into it !!
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Old 16.07.2011, 00:27
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Re: Question for Americans: What is it with the South?

No, I used the term ironically, in quotation marks, and it turns out that the poor kid is from there. Got his or her feelings hurt, though.

Not my student. That I know of.

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You call your student yokels?
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Old 16.07.2011, 00:27
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Re: Question for Americans: What is it with the South?

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No no no no no no no, it is NOT !! In the 50ies and 60ies you HAD to give 12,5% tip regardless whether the service was good or most extremely lousy. THIS was the reason why the "ancien régime" was abolished.

In Switzerland, people in the "service" expect some tips. And THIS is what makes sense. And not some stupid ceremony of being forced into giving "tip" for some most detestable service provided as YOU apparently still would like to have me forced into it !!
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Old 16.07.2011, 00:29
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Re: Question for Americans: What is it with the South?

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I don't think that we're discussing charity here. Tipping a barista isn't charity. (Btw, she earned that extra buck by putting up with my fussy order...)

When I think back to hard times, it makes me feel compassion towards those people who may be going through them, though when and where to help is a difficult line to draw.

At any rate, one thing that I like a lot about Switzerland is the way people make a living wage here, for the most part.

But, the U.S. is a free country for both locals and visitors alike. Whether or not you put money in the tip jar is between you and Jesus (or insert equivalent moral compass here).

Once again, if you give some tip to a barista out of YOUR decision it is alright, but if you HAVE TO give 12,5% of the bill it is rubbish
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Old 16.07.2011, 00:31
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Re: Question for Americans: What is it with the South?

You didn't understand a thing about this conversation. I clearly stated that tipping should only happen when a service was good or excellent in the U.S. I have no opinion about tipping in Switzerland.

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No no no no no no no, it is NOT !! In the 50ies and 60ies you HAD to give 12,5% tip regardless whether the service was good or most extremely lousy. THIS was the reason why the "ancien régime" was abolished.

In Switzerland, people in the "service" expect some tips. And THIS is what makes sense. And not some stupid ceremony of being forced into giving "tip" for some most detestable service provided as YOU apparently still would like to have me forced into it !!
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  #267  
Old 16.07.2011, 00:34
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Re: Question for Americans: What is it with the South?

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No, no alcohol at Starbucks. It is only a shadow of the Italian bars that inspired the franchise.

I fully support your Prosecco habit. I often roll my afternoon coffee into aperitivo time.
A) Starbucks feared that starting with alcoholic beverages would result in their places selling beer and wine instead of coffee
B) they primarlily should prohibit beer also in future as beer pricewise is too close to coffee ----- I on an extensive visit to Milano have seen many coffee bars serving Grappa and even wine but no beer
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Old 16.07.2011, 00:46
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Re: Question for Americans: What is it with the South?

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So the South was or perhaps is still quite racist?
I would not generalize in this regard. I have no doubt that there still is much racism around still in the "Deep South" I am sure that matters have gone foreward and that many sons and daughters of "racists" have changed to non-racist views

Please abstain from delivering statistics that might prove my point and also abstain from delivering statistics to the contrary as I still believe with Winston Churchill only in staticstics I did fake myself
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  #269  
Old 16.07.2011, 00:47
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Re: Question for Americans: What is it with the South?

For all English teachers- poor magic!

What is it with the South?

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Old 16.07.2011, 01:08
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Re: Question for Americans: What is it with the South?

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Here is a chart that I found pertaining to the disparity in the quality of education found between "Northern" and "Southern" states:


I am not from the south only visited a couple of times. I can see how some members are protective of their home state in the south. However there is a general (yes schools vary within the state) difference in the performance of students of the south in comparison to the students of the north. Interestingly enough the above graph correlates pretty closely with the data on educational expenditures from state to state. Again here the south clearly spends less on its pupils than the north.




Further lets look at poverty state by state: Although NY does not do well, the overwhelming amount of states that have the highest poverty rates are in the south




I won't tackle the subject of racism in the south because I know very little about it, other than from what I have read, and heard from others. However, when I visited the south from what I saw there was a strong correlation between being a minority and being impoverished. That does not mean that there are not mixed middle-class neighborhoods, its just an observation.

Amogles, I don't know if you like food, but the south is absolutely great when it comes to cuisine. Try sweet tea, waffles and fried chicken with some collard greens, hoppin' john, sweat potato mash w/marshmallows (yep you read right), shrimp & grits, biscuits & gravy and also do yourself a favor and go to a good BBQ. (It's best to ask the locals when you're down there about what place to go to.) Also if you have the courage try a shot of bourbon with a chaser of pickle juice. If that does not leave an impression I don't know what will. On the other hand if you are a history buff, going to Atlanta to see King's house and read up on the battle of Atlanta is also pretty special.
Yes &No, No &Yes. When half of my grandmum's family in 1902-05 emigrated to Texas they were confronted by mysery and by a severe lack of jobs. And had to get over to the Northern states of Mexico for work for many months and years. Diseases upto about 1920 were a real plague. My uncle got his first job as a carriage rider for the local doctor and later when DR. got his first motor car he had to learn how to drive without any assistance. As good old aunt Hazel told me, the 1910s in TX were years of mysery and diseases. In spite of all the changes and improvements, fact is that the South, for a combination of reasons, still IS relatively poor. The lack of readiness to accept the contribution of Blacks into the general endeavour at least played a part.

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  #271  
Old 16.07.2011, 01:09
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Re: Question for Americans: What is it with the South?

From Alabama:

Some Great poems from this man, perhaps a teacher who taught himself?

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Holman’s House”
This chapbook will always be available on the Dead Mule. It is published in memory of Mr. Grayson who was executed by the state of Alabama on July 26, 2007. May God have mercy on his executor’s souls.
Quote:
Darrell B. Grayson was raised in Montevallo, Alabama with eleven siblings in a single parent household. He dropped out of school in the ninth grade. At age 19, and with no prior criminal history, he was convicted and received the death penalty from an all white jury. He has been on Death Row at Holman Prison in Atmore, Alabama since 1982. After some years of severe depression, which he describes as spending flat on his back, the death of his mother brought about the decision to better himself. He began to write commentary and poetry and received his GED and Associate Science degree. In 1994 he became active in Project Hope to Abolish the Death Penalty, an organization founded and operated by Death Row inmates. In 2000 he became its chairman. He edits and assembles Wings of Hope
I like this one

Quote:
SUN BURNED

Pensive: instructions in honesty and humility, to
Believe otherwise would suggest a callous nature
Worthy of this wretched condition, in stocks, begging
As cardboard cut-outs of an agonized thinker.

Can anyone convince anyone of the need to
Request heaven it open and saturate these
Dreams, then awaken refreshed, bearing the golden
Combination that unlocks the mysteries of this
Sun burned existence, without witnessing
Evolution, desolation and decay; without
Bemoaning the need to belly down, placing
The face in this poisoned earth?

Tell me that which keeps you sane,
Knowing destiny is illusion, knowing we are of
A temporary kind.

From your patch of shade, bear witness
To those things seen looking side ways at the
Sun. Is it truly a glorious ball of fire,
Sitting in its own splendid air? Or is it a
Kaleidoscope of hypnotic light, waiting to
Fulfill the horrors of some revelation, its
Sphere pulsing with the sum of our
Mysterious nature, our existence?

It demands homage of every creature, as
We are nurtured by it. Our senses come
Alive at viewing its magnificence. We throb in
States of ecstacy as it draws near to its
Final destination; even the tides are
Swollen with pride, pausing in their moon
Kissed dance of sensuality. They burst free
With impertinence, picking up their evening
Attire and rush head high beyond the shore
To cool their aching bodies, unsuccessfully,
Against the sun burned earth.
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  #272  
Old 16.07.2011, 01:54
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Re: Question for Americans: What is it with the South?

So, it is the night the feathers get ruffled, obviously

I find the debate fascinating. The Southern Yank get upset coz one Northern Yank posted some graphs about contrasting investments in edu and grades and poverty and all the other shebang, not portraying South very favorably then he gets called a yokel for it, a kid in his twenties, a poor kid, that was, and compared to somebody's not too advanced students. That's kinda patronizingly talking down to somebody, no? So, who is getting defensive? Or am I getting the definition of that word incorrectly? It always gets interesting when obviously good conversationalists start making assumptions about their opponent's perceived personality traits.

Those charts were almighty interesting, so was the reaction of a Southerner here to them. What I have experienced in the US, as an outsider, for truths, there is a disparity between rural and urban, it has been for a while, nothing new and shocking. The readiness to address it was different up North than down South, and it was not only because of cash. Traditionalists. Same here.

How does one quantify educational outcome, by the way?
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  #273  
Old 16.07.2011, 02:57
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Re: Question for Americans: What is it with the South?

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A little learning is a dangerous thing.
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring.
There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely sobers us again.
--Alexander Pope

Cbass,
I'm reluctant to make assumptions about people, but I think you're probably a student in your twenties. At any rate, you reason like a lot of the students in my classes when I read their essays, and get defensive in similar ways when I ask them good questions designed to help them reason through a problem more effectively.

You started with a conclusion, and then looked for data to support it. You used data like a drunk uses a lamppost--for support rather than illumination. "it was merely a bunch of charts which illustrated what seemed to be accepted opinions on the topics"

I did not go to great lengths to "disprove your charts." I spent 3 minutes explaining why your conclusions don't follow from the charts that you presented. The problem was with your reasoning based upon these charts, not the charts themselves. The most important thing to learn here would not be U.S. demographic data--but how to formulate a cogent argument--and defend it.

So, I find it confusing that you would like for me to provide data that "disprove" your charts when the objections I raised were to the reasoning that you applied to them, and not actually about whether or not they are factually accurate.

Re-read my original critique. Think about it. I believe in you.
Prof. Tearley,

you are correct, I am in my 20's a student and poor. I'm slugging it out with 2 to 3 temp jobs up in beautiful Albany, NY, whilst I finish my grad studies. But I have a job in CH after finishing my studies that pays a livable wage so things are on the up and up.

But my dream would be to some time in the future be as arrogant as you, have that annoying Prof. title you can lord over everyone especially on internet forums. I will also be able to attach nice little quotes before a post just so everyone knows how smart I am. Then when some lowely forum member actually thinks to post some information regarding a topic that I disagree with, instead of arguing the data I can just tell him about how superior I am and he will go away. Wow. That will be the day.

Well until then I guess I'm just going to have to keep posting as a regular mortal. One can only dream.

Last edited by Cbass; 16.07.2011 at 03:11.
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  #274  
Old 16.07.2011, 03:11
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Re: Question for Americans: What is it with the South?

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Prof. Tearley,

you are correct, I am in my 20's a student and poor. I'm slugging it out with 2 to 3 temp jobs up in beautiful Albany, NY, whilst I finish my grad studies. But I have a job in CH after finishing my studies that pays a livable wage so things are on the up and up.

But my dream would be to sometime in the future be as arrogant as you, have that annoying Prof. title you can lord over everyone especially on internet forums. I will also be able to attach nice little quotes before a post just so everyone knows how smart I am. Then when some lowely forum member actually thinks to post some information regarding a topic that I disagree with, instead of arguing the data I can just tell him about how superior I am and he will go away. Wow. That will be the day.

Well until then I guess I'm just going to have to keep posting as a regular mortal. One can only dream.
That was pretty good, CBass.

May you have B-, though, just to keep you humble and not want to question authority. Protocol is protocol.





This is not a showcase of intellect here, why do people take if for one, beats me.

And I caught an effin' flu, as well. It's a reverse placebo from that damn flu thread we just had.
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  #275  
Old 16.07.2011, 03:13
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Re: Question for Americans: What is it with the South?

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So, it is the night the feathers get ruffled, obviously


How does one quantify educational outcome, by the way?
Great question-depends on who is doing the quantifying and why. This is becoming evermore difficult when schools resort to cheating to get funds.
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  #276  
Old 16.07.2011, 09:56
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Woli, did you try to eat normal food or Southern food? If you found a grungy looking BBQ joint in the 70s, 80s, or 90s, and didn't eat well then you must have tried to pick up the owner's daughter or something. If you were on the coast and didn't have some good seafood then ditto. You gotta remember, deep fried or slow cooked. You want a salad?! Heavy ass dressing with some iceberg lettuce. It ain't about the salad and Michelin ain't gonna give no stars to Maurice Bessinger for his BBQ, but boy, you WILL eat well. Just gotta know where to look.
I ate excellently in New Orleans (Cajun cuisine) and in the home of my old aunt in Marshall/Texas. And also the BBQ of a cousin in Houston was praiseworthy. But not what was available in the restaurants (it is 1976 I refer to) . "Southern food" had a kind of revival/rediscovery in the 80ies. And in those years, Mexican food and Cajun food moved into Texas in a big way, and "Tex-Mex" got invented.

In 1997 I was in some most excellent restaurants on the coastline just south of Myrtle Beach/SC, where the food and the views and the service were excellent, and that at fairly low prices.

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You didn't understand a thing about this conversation. I clearly stated that tipping should only happen when a service was good or excellent in the U.S. I have no opinion about tipping in Switzerland.
I understood quite well what you were saying. But you basically referred to Switzerland, and I made it clear why that "tipping rubbish" in most of Europe and even the Maghreb was dropped and abolished. The tipping thing also had the unfortunate side-effect that waiters were fighting internally for the "good" places, which means that the more ruthless ones and the ones with a better relationship to the management got the better places to serve. I however gave the CH example which clearly was the worst all around.

I regard the dropping of the tipping-"duty" as clear progress

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So, it is the night the feathers get ruffled, obviously

I find the debate fascinating. The Southern Yank get upset coz one Northern Yank posted some graphs about contrasting investments in edu and grades and poverty and all the other shebang, not portraying South very favorably then he gets called a yokel for it, a kid in his twenties, a poor kid, that was, and compared to somebody's not too advanced students. That's kinda patronizingly talking down to somebody, no? So, who is getting defensive? Or am I getting the definition of that word incorrectly? It always gets interesting when obviously good conversationalists start making assumptions about their opponent's perceived personality traits.

Those charts were almighty interesting, so was the reaction of a Southerner here to them. What I have experienced in the US, as an outsider, for truths, there is a disparity between rural and urban, it has been for a while, nothing new and shocking. The readiness to address it was different up North than down South, and it was not only because of cash. Traditionalists. Same here.

How does one quantify educational outcome, by the way?
What is wrong with such statistics. I will go for the states of Louisiana and Texas. Louisiana by a money-per-capita ratio spends far more than Texas for education, healthcare and public transport (all three private in Texas and state-owned in Louisiana) but this at the bottom-line results in the same per-capita-values, as Texas as a state is far richer. Again, Texas shows still as a "poor state" which is rubbish. The truth however is that in many rural areas of Texas, for instance in the "empty quarter" between the SanAntonio-Austin line and the Rio Grande, many people live on nothing. And rightwing-capitalist Texas is not exactly in the habit to support the poor. The inevitable result of this is the relatively high number of poor people. Which is hardly surprising really.

Last edited by MusicChick; 16.07.2011 at 11:17. Reason: Merging consecutive posts. Learn to multiquote, please, you seem to be the only one forgetting how to multiquote....thanks.
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  #277  
Old 16.07.2011, 11:14
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Re: Question for Americans: What is it with the South?

The last few pages of this thread remind me of this song.
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Old 16.07.2011, 11:16
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Re: Question for Americans: What is it with the South?

Aside from the partisan bickering....a little story about my experience of the South in rural Alabama a couple of years ago.

I was visiting a company and I was due to leave at midday...they suggested a "light lunch" before I left. I was shown into a room at 1115 or so to see a table heaving with fried chicken, deep fried potato wedges, peanut butter based dipping sauce, "hogback" (I think they called it.....like plate sized pieces of pork scratching or pork belly), grits and sour cream sauce. My heart sank at the size of the spread and its own impending cholesterol-related demise. I thanked them profusely and started to do my best to tuck in but then at the back of the table I spotted a tiny bowl of green beans. I made a tiny comment about somebody having accidentally let a vegetable into the room.

One of the big guys - with a cowboy hat and a bolo tie, I swear - quietly walked up to me and with a smile said "Careful what you say here, boy. Twenty years ago, I had yoghurt for breakfast one time and they still think I'm a homosexual"

Great place, great food, southern hospitality isn't a myth, but pretending that the US is one country doesn't help......its two countries with one president and almost two languages
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Old 16.07.2011, 11:24
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Re: Question for Americans: What is it with the South?

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Aside from the partisan bickering....a little story about my experience of the South in rural Alabama a couple of years ago.

I was visiting a company and I was due to leave at midday...they suggested a "light lunch" before I left. I was shown into a room at 1115 or so to see a table heaving with fried chicken, deep fried potato wedges, peanut butter based dipping sauce, "hogback" (I think they called it.....like plate sized pieces of pork scratching or pork belly), grits and sour cream sauce. My heart sank at the size of the spread and its own impending cholesterol-related demise. I thanked them profusely and started to do my best to tuck in but then at the back of the table I spotted a tiny bowl of green beans. I made a tiny comment about somebody having accidentally let a vegetable into the room.

One of the big guys - with a cowboy hat and a bolo tie, I swear - quietly walked up to me and with a smile said "Careful what you say here, boy. Twenty years ago, I had yoghurt for breakfast one time and they still think I'm a homosexual"

Great place, great food, southern hospitality isn't a myth, but pretending that the US is one country doesn't help......its two countries with one president and almost two languages
It kinda shows here, too. Too bad.

Hey, thanks for the vegetables and yoghurt insight! Certain things are starting to be logical to me.. I was going to make Tzatziki, might change my mind, after all.

It might not be one country, but the size of plastic drinking cups friends had (to sip while they go about their business, so they wouldn't die of dehydration, I think it was about 1,5l) up North and down South was the same. Humongous.

I do miss the greasy spoons, both southern and northern. CH could open a few. The few disappearing Kebab places here aren't quite cutting it.
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Old 16.07.2011, 11:26
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Re: Question for Americans: What is it with the South?

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It might not be one country, but the size of plastic drinking cups friends had (to sip while they go about their business, so they wouldn't die of dehydration, I think it was about 1,5l) up North and down South was the same. Humongous.
It's a long way between truck stops, isn't it?
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