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  #101  
Old 18.07.2011, 12:42
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

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Thank you for reading my post, ignoring it, and posting what you wanted to post anyway. Firstly "much of the new atheism is a reaction to increased efforts from fundamentalist religions". I don't see any evidence of this.
Your post seemd to be just an underhanded dismissal of atheism as lacking in substance (rather than just deities), that maybe you want it to just be a few teenage kids on internet forums getting all snarky. But, I guess as I'm reading through atheist blogs, the influence of fundamentalists may be blown out of all proportion, it's certainly a bigger problem in the US than it is anywhere in the west, so it may not seem as relevant here.

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It would fit your MO if it were true, but it seems to me to be a facet of modernity and the low-attention span internet age. A clever quip is easier to grip on to than the Quran or Bible.
Isn't it just as easy to get a clever quip from the bible or quran? I would say what you're describing is ages older than the internet, and is actualy one of the things the "New atheism" is against, pithy recital of bible verses at every opportunity.

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I didn't say atheists should keep their views to themselves. Tell who you like, seriously. It's just that there's a fine line between chatting away and proselytising about this new thing that you've discovered that you know and that they don't, about this amazing Truth and you just have to read this Book and listen to this Guy Speak. And have you Heard about the Spaghetti Monster*
I took that from

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Anyway, I just wish most atheists were as I'd like them to be, people who just got on with living life, having surpassed religion and believe and faith and god.
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The other thing is that I really don't see much of a connection between atheism and religion per se. Are we "fighting" belief in a deity or in fundamentalist religion? In the latter should we include those atheist religions of Stalinism and Nazism that comply with the definition of religion in every other way (other than having a god) or are we just against clubs with deities?
Although a lot is centred on the attacking the god belief, I would say they're really more intrested in a healthy dose of sketpicism and rationalism in everyday life. I don't think there'll be any setting up of churches. If people really do start beliveing in the spaghetti monster, they will simply no longer be athiests.
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  #102  
Old 18.07.2011, 12:52
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

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Your post seemd to be just an underhanded dismissal of atheism as lacking in substance (rather than just deities), that maybe you want it to just be a few teenage kids on internet forums getting all snarky. But, I guess as I'm reading through atheist blogs, the influence of fundamentalists may be blown out of all proportion, it's certainly a bigger problem in the US than it is anywhere in the west, so it may not seem as relevant here.

Isn't it just as easy to get a clever quip from the bible or quran? I would say what you're describing is ages older than the internet, and is actualy one of the things the "New atheism" is against, pithy recital of bible verses at every opportunity.

I took that from




Although a lot is centred on the attacking the god belief, I would say they're really more intrested in a healthy dose of sketpicism and rationalism in everyday life. I don't think there'll be any setting up of churches. If people really do start beliveing in the spaghetti monster, they will simply no longer be athiests.
I think atheism is lacking in substance but I don't want it to be a few kids on the internet - that's what it is now. The whole point of atheism is something that's lacking. The big thing about atheism is that an atheist has nothing to prove, nothing to argue. The world is exactly as it is. It's just that they are not adding anything extra to the equation. I'm stunned that there is such a thing as an atheist blog. I can imagine an anti-religion blog but it seems that the normal lack of belief in a deity has been co-opted by those with an anti-religion agenda. Now there's nothing especially wrong with either of those I just hate to see them linked as if they naturally belong together.

In many ways I liken atheism to anarchism. Both are simply absences of things in the holder's worldview. However IMO in those with somewhat more limited imaginations, anarchism turns into a barbarian dictatorship of thrown rocks and petrol bombs and atheism turns into an all encompassing dogma. It's not that I don't think atheists have a right to speak - go for it, it's just that as simply an absence of a deity in one's worldview I'm very sceptical there's much to say on the subject at all, that doesn't involve religion bashing or selling books or being smug.
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  #103  
Old 18.07.2011, 13:03
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

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I think atheism is lacking in substance but I don't want it to be a few kids on the internet - that's what it is now. The whole point of atheism is something that's lacking. The big thing about atheism is that an atheist has nothing to prove, nothing to argue. The world is exactly as it is. It's just that they are not adding anything extra to the equation. I'm stunned that there is such a thing as an atheist blog. I can imagine an anti-religion blog but it seems that the normal lack of belief in a deity has been co-opted by those with an anti-religion agenda. Now there's nothing especially wrong with either of those I just hate to see them linked as if they naturally belong together.
In a way, you're right, but they aren't really blogs about atheism, rather written by atheists, and, the ones I read anyway, are usualy about troubles dealing with irrational and usually religious arguments.

Also, nothing is lacking in atheism, it is not missing "something".

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In many ways I liken atheism to anarchism. Both are simply absences of things in the holder's worldview. However IMO in those with somewhat more limited imaginations, anarchism turns into a barbarian dictatorship of thrown rocks and petrol bombs and atheism turns into an all encompassing dogma. It's not that I don't think atheists have a right to speak - go for it, it's just that as simply an absence of a deity in one's worldview I'm very sceptical there's much to say on the subject at all, that doesn't involve religion bashing or selling books or being smug.
I really have no idea what this atheist dogma is. But, yes, they will bash religion when religion posits things it can't know as facts, or when religion appoints itself our moral guardians, call it religion bashing, I call it being a bit sensible. Atheism has a lot to say and it's not just about being smug.
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  #104  
Old 18.07.2011, 13:23
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

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. But, yes, they will bash religion when religion posits things it can't know as facts, or when religion appoints itself our moral guardians, call it religion bashing, I call it being a bit sensible. Atheism has a lot to say and it's not just about being smug.
I'll add to this.


When my grandfather (In practical terms, my dad) died, I had to deal with the ordeal. Cops, Reports, get the body, Do the paperwork for the burial (he was buried in a cementary that is no longer "in use"), cremation, deal with people.. uzw. you know the usual stuff.

Long before that I've been an atheist, mostly because I came to that conclusion on my own after Santa Claus, and just extended it. My grandfather was the same. We pretty much kept to ourselves

So it really pissed me off and turn me to the vocal side that:

a) Given the amount of religious persons around the family, we were expected to hold service, when my grandfather specifically stated otherwise. That we were somehow "pushed" to do this eventhough money was lacking and would inccur in some hefty debt to do it. At the end we didn't

b) that at your must vulnerable point in your grieving process, some relatives (JW, if I must point out) come to you with the "hope" of eternal salvation, etc. That God this and God that. I mean Really? You think that is comforting? Do you think that somehow ads value, or substracts pain from the loss we just suffered. It's propagranda, nothing more.

c) Had people had the chance, they would have try to convert him in his deathbed. That seems awfully sinister to me; and it seems pretty well accepted in our societym even expected. I don't go bashing people's hope in their deathbeds, and it would seem terribly crass of me to do so.


So there, after that I turned vocal, It's not even fundamentalism, it's just overall douchiness in which people can inccur under the mantle of Religion.


...Now you see why I don't make serious posts....
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  #105  
Old 18.07.2011, 13:54
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

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I really have no idea what this atheist dogma is. But, yes, they will bash religion when religion posits things it can't know as facts, or when religion appoints itself our moral guardians, call it religion bashing, I call it being a bit sensible. Atheism has a lot to say and it's not just about being smug.
Ask the people who stick ads on buses.

This has in the past been compared to collecting stamps being a hobby, but not collecting stamps not being a hobby. That may be a valid comparison. But I never saw a bus advert telling me not to collect stamps and I never saw a blog about not collecting stamps and I enver heard of non collectors getting organised or getting loud or refusing to use the services of the post office lest they somehow become posioned by the propaganda of stamp collecting that would sublimally be imposed on them if they even come near a postage stamp. If atheists would act like real stamp non-collectors, ie, shut up about it, that would be okay, but some (admittedly maybe just a vocal minority who spoil things for the others) act as if they are on some holy war for their cause. You can maybe object that that is not really about the cause but more about the freedom. If they did that in Saudi Arabai or Iran or some other theocratic society I would maybe believe they were on to something. But I haven't heard about said bus advert either actually appearing or being turned down or banned in Riad or Mecca or Teheran. Rather, we have people living in a free society over here putting themselves in an imaginary cage and pretending not to be free. Okay, one bus company turned down the advert. they picked the one that they knew was most likely to be most conservative and they didn't try to run it anywhere else but have fabricated the evidence to prove there is a conspiracy against them. What exactly does that prove?
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  #106  
Old 18.07.2011, 14:01
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

Plenty of ads telling you to not collect stds, which religion do they belong to?
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  #107  
Old 18.07.2011, 14:03
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

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Penty of ads telling you to not collect stds, which religion do they belong to?
It's definitely not the catholics...as they don't like using rubbers.
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  #108  
Old 18.07.2011, 14:13
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

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Also, nothing is lacking in atheism, it is not missing "something".
No I didn't say it was missing something. I said "The whole point of atheism is something that's lacking." Or rather, you can't prove a negative. Or another way: if you don't need to prove the lack of god then you can't "be" an atheist where an atheist is anything more than a lack of belief. Put (yet) another way, I could be a member of the "Cyrus isn't a goat club". It's fine, it's not hurting anyone but it's illogical and weird. Now a "Cyrus is a goat club" is also weird but it might have a point if there's a case to be made that Cyrus is indeed a goat. But any atheist worth his salt will tell you there's no case to be made for the absence of god, the devil or Cyrus being a goat.
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Old 18.07.2011, 14:17
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

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No I didn't say it was missing something. I said "The whole point of atheism is something that's lacking." Or rather, you can't prove a negative. Or another way: if you don't need to prove the lack of god then you can't "be" an atheist where an atheist is anything more than a lack of belief. Put (yet) another way, I could be a member of the "Cyrus isn't a goat club". It's fine, it's not hurting anyone but it's illogical and weird. Now a "Cyrus is a goat club" is also weird but it might have a point if there's a case to be made that Cyrus is indeed a goat. But any atheist worth his salt will tell you there's no case to be made for the absence of god, the devil or Cyrus being a goat.
Excuse my ignorance...buuuuuuut why on earth would an atheist have to prove the lack of god?
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  #110  
Old 18.07.2011, 14:17
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

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"Cyrus isn't a goat club"
Suppose there were a number of "Cyrus IS a goat" clubs, and some of those had a prime directive of making sure that everyone was a member. The "Cyrus isn't a goat" club people may become something other than entirely passive in their belief. Or lack of belief whatever.
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  #111  
Old 18.07.2011, 14:18
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

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It's not that I don't think atheists have a right to speak - go for it, it's just that as simply an absence of a deity in one's worldview I'm very sceptical there's much to say on the subject at all, that doesn't involve religion bashing or selling books or being smug.
I tend to agree with you, to a point. My problem with such an attitude is that it becomes a slightly childish game of being dared to respond to provocation, and then being seen as the lesser man when you do, no matter how or to what degree you do it. Religious imagery, discourse, and proselytizing is still rampant in the world, but allowances are made for that because that's how it's always been. An atheist responds, no matter how mildly or reasonably, and is instantly labelled "militant" and no better than the person who he's responding to. You can imagine how frustrating it gets.

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Ask the people who stick ads on buses.

This has in the past been compared to collecting stamps being a hobby, but not collecting stamps not being a hobby. That may be a valid comparison. But I never saw a bus advert telling me not to collect stamps and I never saw a blog about not collecting stamps and I enver heard of non collectors getting organised or getting loud or refusing to use the services of the post office lest they somehow become posioned by the propaganda of stamp collecting that would sublimally be imposed on them if they even come near a postage stamp.
If stamp collectors comprised a majority of the population, claimed to have a monopoly on the history of morality, and basically did everything religion does now, you better believe there would be blowback.
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If atheists would act like real stamp non-collectors, ie, shut up about it, that would be okay, but some (admittedly maybe just a vocal minority who spoil things for the others) act as if they are on some holy war for their cause.
It would be convenient, wouldn't it? It's pretty funny how, in most cases, simply asking for equal rights of expression is conflated with "holy war". It's such a childish game of "Nyah, nyah, nyah, got you to care!"
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You can maybe object that that is not really about the cause but more about the freedom. If they did that in Saudi Arabai or Iran or some other theocratic society I would maybe believe they were on to something. But I haven't heard about said bus advert either actually appearing or being turned down or banned in Riad or Mecca or Teheran.
You know full well that bringing up atheism in any of those places is bad for your physical health. So it's the same old argument of "you aren't willing to suffer phyical violence or die for your cause, so it's invalid". You can't possibly be serious. Even Phos apologized for saying something similar back in the day.

Just because the atheist stance has reached relative acceptance in today's society in a natural manner, mainly through philosophy and without a history of being violently persecuted, doesn't mean that atheists should thank their lucky stars and be quiet about it. Or that there isn't progress to be made in the areas of equality and awareness. No discrimination is possible if the history of your rights movement doesn't involve getting devoured by lions, I guess.
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Rather, we have people living in a free society over here putting themselves in an imaginary cage and pretending not to be free. Okay, one bus company turned down the advert. they picked the one that they knew was most likely to be most conservative and they didn't try to run it anywhere else but have fabricated the evidence to prove there is a conspiracy against them. What exactly does that prove?
Article in French: http://www.lecourrier.ch/sept_villes...les_bus_athees

You can use Google Translate. But some basic corrections: it was refused in 7 Swiss cities, by the company that was holding a near monopoly 90% on bus advertisements in CH. Why should they have tried to run it anywhere else? They managed to do it successfully on buses in the UK, US, and Canada. I don't see it as fabricating evidence that there's a conspiracy when the evidence is out in the clear.

"Indeed, the ethical charter of the company on ads confessional states that "the advertiser must be a denomination or church officially recognized according to the criteria generally accepted in Switzerland."

The one city where it was accepted to run was Luzern, and it ended up not happening due to threats of buses running the ads being burned down. Those atheists are so paranoid with their conspiracy theories, aren't they...

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  #112  
Old 18.07.2011, 14:35
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

I am also a Stamp Collector.

Of course, I don't actually have any stamps myself, nor indeed have I ever held or seen one, or otherwise experienced one personally in any way whatsoever, but I know many people who do. Or rather, I know people who know people who said they knew a person that once met someone else who said that that someone else was p-r-e-t-t-y sure that what they had seen was a stamp.

Three times a day at home, we get out our family's copy of The Gibbons and read from it, knowing that our salvation, as well as our stamps, hinge on it.

Every week, we go down to the Post Office where the Post Master reaffirms our faith in stamps. Strangely, there are never any stamps there either, but the Post Master assures me that that's not important. What is important is to just believe and that will guarantee me a place in heaven, because philately will get me anywhere.
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  #113  
Old 18.07.2011, 14:59
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

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Suppose there were a number of "Cyrus IS a goat" clubs, and some of those had a prime directive of making sure that everyone was a member. The "Cyrus isn't a goat" club people may become something other than entirely passive in their belief. Or lack of belief whatever.
Being against people slandering Cyrus or calling him a goat (ie being reactive) isn't the same as proactively starting "Cyrus isn't a goat" clubs. The latter doesn't make any kind of sense. That's what I mean by "being an atheist" not making sense to me. Obviously if you want to be anti-Cyrus-goat clubs, that's fine and if you want to be anti-religion that's also fine, it's just not part and parcel of being an atheist. It's a bit like liking Hip Hop and thinking that means you have to argue with and beat up those who like Classical music (they get all the government funding, they have more radio play etc) when really it should be all about the music....dude.
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  #114  
Old 18.07.2011, 15:10
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

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Being against people slandering Cyrus or calling him a goat (ie being reactive) isn't the same as proactively starting "Cyrus isn't a goat" clubs.
That's what I've been getting at: even being reactive or, let's face it, harmlessly (albeit cheekily) pro-active like the pastafarian in Austria, might as well be an all-out guns blazing assault as far as some people are concerned.

"Atheists aren't supposed to care, so they should practice what they preach and shut up." My point is that it isn't a complete illegitimization of your standpoint if you do speak up every once in a while, especially in view of the fact that theism isn't always a benign and easily-ignorable phenomenon. Or that atheists are still the most distrusted minority in some big countries.
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It's a bit like liking Hip Hop and thinking that means you have to argue with and beat up those who like Classical music (they get all the government funding, they have more radio play etc) when really it should be all about the music....dude.
A major crux of classical music fans' beliefs isn't eternal damnation for Hip-Hop listeners. :-/
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  #115  
Old 18.07.2011, 15:22
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

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Being against people slandering Cyrus or calling him a goat (ie being reactive) isn't the same as proactively starting "Cyrus isn't a goat" clubs. The latter doesn't make any kind of sense. That's what I mean by "being an atheist" not making sense to me. Obviously if you want to be anti-Cyrus-goat clubs, that's fine and if you want to be anti-religion that's also fine, it's just not part and parcel of being an atheist. It's a bit like liking Hip Hop and thinking that means you have to argue with and beat up those who like Classical music (they get all the government funding, they have more radio play etc) when really it should be all about the music....dude.
I'm not sure what you mean by being slandered or being called a goat.

It does seem silly, but it only makes sense when you consider that the opposite is the default, it's the standard to believe in something. But there are a group of people who are united by a common disbelief. However, many will have very different reasons.

Regarding the music, if all stations played classical music, or every other music but hip hop, are you saying the hip hop lovers should just accept that, and go and listen to their music, in the corner, out of the way and don't be bothering noone. It get's even stranger if you consider different genres of hip hop, should one devotee of one genre of hip hop not get together with a devotee of another genre in the hopes of getting airplay? Even though they don't like the exact same things, they have a common ground.
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  #116  
Old 18.07.2011, 16:17
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

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Regarding the music, if all stations played classical music, or every other music but hip hop, are you saying the hip hop lovers should just accept that, and go and listen to their music, in the corner, out of the way and don't be bothering noone. It get's even stranger if you consider different genres of hip hop, should one devotee of one genre of hip hop not get together with a devotee of another genre in the hopes of getting airplay? Even though they don't like the exact same things, they have a common ground.
If the devotees of Hip Hop claimed that Hip Hop wasn't music (for example because certain instruments and musical forms are absent) and fought tooth and nail against accusations from the other musical factions that in fact Hip Hop was music, and demanded that the record stores didn't file Hip Hop in the music section but place it in non-music, then you might be on to something.
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  #117  
Old 18.07.2011, 16:34
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

it's like man that cage guy really you know understood hoop hap n stuff innit!!!

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Old 18.07.2011, 16:39
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

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That's what I've been getting at: even being reactive or, let's face it, harmlessly (albeit cheekily) pro-active like the pastafarian in Austria, might as well be an all-out guns blazing assault as far as some people are concerned.

"Atheists aren't supposed to care, so they should practice what they preach and shut up." My point is that it isn't a complete illegitimization of your standpoint if you do speak up every once in a while, especially in view of the fact that theism isn't always a benign and easily-ignorable phenomenon. Or that atheists are still the most distrusted minority in some big countries.A major crux of classical music fans' beliefs isn't eternal damnation for Hip-Hop listeners. :-/
Last thing first - what on earth does it matter if a Christian thinks you're going to hell?

I don't have a problem with atheists speaking up - especially if it were in a logic/philosophical/educational environment. Even better if they approached unrelated subjected from a humanist/secular/atheistic standpoint.
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  #119  
Old 18.07.2011, 16:52
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

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If the devotees of Hip Hop claimed that Hip Hop wasn't music (for example because certain instruments and musical forms are absent) and fought tooth and nail against accusations from the other musical factions that in fact Hip Hop was music, and demanded that the record stores didn't file Hip Hop in the music section but place it in non-music, then you might be on to something.

Well the music analogy wasn't mine, and I don't like my bit it doesn't make sense. Neither does this though. Let's say some group of non musicians talked about music, but the talk about music got classified as music, because, well, just because, critically talking about music just isn't done, so it must be music.
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  #120  
Old 18.07.2011, 16:56
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

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Last thing first - what on earth does it matter if a Christian thinks you're going to hell?
A Christian, don't really care. Those I know personally or those who are in a position of power, it's a different story. But then I do think they're effectively delusional, so I guess I'm no better in some ways. Point taken.
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