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  #141  
Old 19.07.2011, 14:26
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

That's only the atheists that you hear. The ones that shout. And they tend to be, what I term, born-again atheists. Ones that were brought up in a religion and then 'converted'.

I can't say I was raised an atheist, I'm not sure how that would work, but I was raised by athesists to always question, to never take anything as fact just because someone in a certain hat/frock/wig says it, to look beyond what people say to what they mean and to question why they are trying to make you think in this way. And therefore, I would never join the humanists or any organised non-religion.... what's the point?

To be honest, I'm not sure how many atheists are atheists or agnostics or just annoyed at god(s/ess/esses). People day Darwin was an atheist, he wasn't, he turned his back on the christian god...... You can't turn your back on something that doesn't exist, he was p**sed off with Him, but still believed in Him.

Many of the people, who have truely 'converted', are so used to being told how/what to think and act by some 'head' that they feel this loss and that's why the cult of Dawkins is doing so well. Just like any other born-againer. Born again Christians and non-smokers are just as annoying.

p.s. I can't stand Dawkins...... personally, I don't care what anyone believes as long as they don't harm anyone or ram it down your throat. And Dawkins is a rammer.

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Firstly, I definitely tolerate "Atheists" shouting about atheism. It irritates the hell out of me, but even I irritate the hell out of me occasionally so I won't hold that against them. It's just disappointing.

I don't know why - certainly there doesn't need to be a connection between God and religion, but all these Atheists who profess to be so strong of function and independent of mind are busy creating the Religion of No God replete with special books, special symbols, special leaders. For me, atheism is about filling the time and mental space usually devoted to God and religion with travel and tennis and hopscotch. It isn't about writing books to convince people that there is no God. The very idea is absurd. Whole books, loads of them, written by surprisingly few people (one readily springs to mind - The Leader) chattering endlessly about "well...there's no proof but it's incredibly unlikely". Thing is - atheists will arise naturally. They'll throw off religion and get on with the rest of life. But artificial atheists - atheists "convinced" by some book or other will view it as yet another religion. A religion that, instead of rewarding them with an infinite paradisical afterlife, will reward them with a big bag of Smug to take to the pub after work. "You know mate, you believe in one god, the guy in the curry house believes in 3 gods, I believe in no god and none of us believes in Zeus - we're all Atheists for Zeus and most of the gods out there" "Wow, that's really clever. I'd love to be able to impress others and show that I'm a free thinker. I think I'll join your club. Are there any recommended books I should pick up?"

And so it is. Legion Atheists, still slave to their human impulse to belong to something, anything as long as it makes them feel good. Almost none of them have moved beyond anything, almost none of them think independently or know really what they believe at all. One day, Team Atheist will engage in a Holy/Not Holy War with Team God.

Anyway, I just wish most atheists were as I'd like them to be, people who just got on with living life, having surpassed religion and believe and faith and god.
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  #142  
Old 19.07.2011, 14:27
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

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(I've never seen a priest walk across the road with his eyes closed).
Or the pope without a bulletproof car ....
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  #143  
Old 19.07.2011, 14:32
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

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That's only the atheists that you hear. The ones that shout. And they tend to be, what I term, born-again atheists. Ones that were brought up in a religion and then 'converted'.

I can't say I was raised an atheist, I'm not sure how that would work, but I was raised by athesists to always question, to never take anything as fact just because someone in a certain hat/frock/wig says it, to look beyond what people say to what they mean and to question why they are trying to make you think in this way. And therefore, I would never join the humanists or any organised non-religion.... what's the point?

To be honest, I'm not sure how many atheists are atheists or agnostics or just annoyed at god(s/ess/esses). People day Darwin was an atheist, he wasn't, he turned his back on the christian god...... You can't turn your back on something that doesn't exist, he was p**sed off with Him, but still believed in Him.

Many of the people, who have truely 'converted', are so used to being told how/what to think and act by some 'head' that they feel this loss and that's why the cult of Dawkins is doing so well. Just like any other born-againer. Born again Christians and non-smokers are just as annoying.

p.s. I can't stand Dawkins...... personally, I don't care what anyone believes as long as they don't harm anyone or ram it down your throat. And Dawkins is a rammer.
Absolutely. It seems that anyone who's a born-again anything (or nouveau riche even) is a pain in the rear end. And Dawkins is indeed a rammer.
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  #144  
Old 19.07.2011, 14:34
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

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Absolutely. It seems that anyone who's a born-again anything .
Born-again Mod's too??
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  #145  
Old 19.07.2011, 14:35
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

How is dawkins a rammer? You'd have to buy his book or watch his programs, which usualy only seem to be on late at night.
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  #146  
Old 19.07.2011, 14:38
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

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Born-again Mod's too??
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  #147  
Old 19.07.2011, 14:43
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

We've already had the discussion about Dawkins, so I'll copy my post from that thread, but I don't see how you can call him a rammer or anything similar unless you go out of your way to be offended (either for yourself, or for others) by what he says. He's written a few books and appears on TV every once in a while, run for the hills. You won't get days of TV coverage and white smoke blowing at Oxford when his successor is appointed, trust me.

My old post:

" I find the claims made about Dawkins being a "fundamentalist" or a "bully" really quite peculiar. I would really like to see a video where Dawkins says or does something extreme or overtly mean. He can be a bit crude and matter-of-fact, but nothing I've seen him say is unworthy of a good intellect and generally tolerant individual. It's ignorant to suggest otherwise. I guess he could display more tact when discussing religions, but I can't blame him. He thinks it shouldn't be given special treatment in a rational debate, and he's absolutely right. Every claim he makes, he makes sure to base it in verifiable and documented data, and I've never seen him pretend to have answers that he doesn't. You could have personal reasons to think he's a jerk, but he doesn't deserve to be treated like a common fundamentalist. You don't have to agree with every point he makes to recognize that he makes them well and without much hostility, certainly not with the vitriol that some people falsely claim he does.

Just because someone is passionate about something and has made something their pet subject, doesn't mean they should be compared to the extremists. A man specializing in a certain field of philosphy that goes against other philosphical views is not considered a "fundamentalist" and marginalized. Rational and calm debates are still able to take place. Dawkins is just treated like a fundamentalist because religion is still a taboo subject for many people to criticize. And he's simply trying to change that."

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  #148  
Old 19.07.2011, 14:44
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

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What a silly thing to say. Imagine if we all thought like this, you would have to believe absolutely everything you're told, unless you could prove otherwise.

Doe this mean you think there an infinite ammount of faiths? Of all the people who don't believe in all the things that people just make up. What do you call them all? aunicornists, afarieist, amanonthemoonist, the list is infinite.
I guess it comes down to what you put on forms..... when you fill in certain forms they ask you sex, marital status, nationality, religion etc etc. So religion is so important in our society that people are classified by their response. If, when you filled in your tax form, they asked about unicorns or NASA you might have a point. But atheists are a classification.
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  #149  
Old 19.07.2011, 14:50
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

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But atheists are a classification.
Don't you put "none"? A lot of people wonder just how many of the "none"s are actually atheists, it's not a given.
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  #150  
Old 19.07.2011, 14:54
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

To a certain extent I believe Economisto has made some very valid points and has expressed a few things I've thought about the recent 'capitalist PR' make over of the oldest show in town; atheism.

The so called 'new atheists' are in fact shooting atheism in the foot with the books and the bill-boards to a certain extent.
It appears that the oppressed have become the oppressors; the pigs have taken over the farm and are indistinguishable from the humans, if you want an Orwellian reference. The whole point of atheism was to be different from the un-thinking masses, not use the churches own tacktics against them, to turn the other cheek if you will.

But then again that line of thinking betrays an over arching elitism, it suggests one has to be intelligent enough to break away by yourself, before one can think rationally about these subjects, it suggests that enlightenment is for those and such as those. And this was the feeling in the 50's, University, Eton, and Atheism.

The 'new Atheists' have in this respect done atheism a favour, and expanded the circle, but at the expense of a dearth of intellect of participants.

Religion can be banned, as in the Soviet era countries, leading to an over-all drop in participation, but not a death to religion. The Communists misread Marx, and the 'new atheists' have in general never fully understood him (with the exception of Hitchens who has his own agenda); but his fundamental idea was that education of the masses, a lack of hunger and unhappiness and poverty will lead to religion evaporating.

To that end it is not religion that should be the target of these peoples aggression it should be the causes of religion, when the causes of religion are extinguished then there will be no fuel left for the fire.

In part the major causes of religion have already been tackled :- disease and death are now known to be caused by scientific reasons, not angels or daemons, the planets, geology, evolution all provide compelling answers to questions, all that remains is hunger poverty and fear, unfortunately these are also the main bi-products of global capitalism.

God may well exist, but by our modern reasoning will he not be an Alien being? And how exactly does he control a seemingly infinitely large Heaven and hell that surely violates the governing laws of thermo-dynamics?

He sure does move in mysterious ways...

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  #151  
Old 19.07.2011, 14:57
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

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We've already had the discussion about Dawkins, so I'll copy my post from that thread, but I don't see how you can call him a rammer or anything similar unless you go out of your way to be offended (either for yourself, or for others) by what he says.
I acknowledge that rammer is a bit strong and apologise. I guess I'm fed up what every time I say I'm an atheist that the response is along the lines of 'So you follow Dawkins'. No I follow no-one and no-theism.

And I guess that's what it comes down to.... people think all atheists are like Dawkins, and they all think like Dawkins and believe in the things that Dawkins believes. I, personally, object to what he says when he says that rather than believing there is no god, they have no belief in god, and that all atheists are rational and think only in terms of probability etc. Most of my family are in that terms, but I am convinced there is no god. I believe it. It is my belief.

So OK, Dawkins isn't a rammer, same as the pope isn't, but just think of me as an anglican in a catholic school. I'm being rammed, by Dawkin.

Urm....that doesn't sound right
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  #152  
Old 19.07.2011, 14:58
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

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Don't you put "none"? A lot of people wonder just how many of the "none"s are actually atheists, it's not a given.
Actually, where it's writen rather than tick box it's atheist. And it was a tick box on the 2011 UK census.
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  #153  
Old 19.07.2011, 15:00
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

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In part the major causes of religion have already been tackled :- disease and death are now known to be caused by scientific reasons, not angels or daemons, the planets, geology, evolution all provide compelling answers to questions, all that remains is hunger poverty and fear, unfortunately these are also the main bi-products of global capitalism.
Uhmm, raised this point earlier, but the new atheism was a reaction to increasing pressure to teach ID and creationism as science in schools. The battle still rages on that front in the US, to a lesser extent the UK. I belive this is what you are referring to when you say they should be taking on the causes.
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  #154  
Old 19.07.2011, 15:41
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

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I stopped there. Epic fail, most of the science has had proof, that's why it is "peer reviewed".
As in there's safety in a crowd?
There's safety in authority?
Objective truth is not something that is determined by democratic majorities or by trusting guys who knows a bit more than you do. It is something that exists independently of our awareness and understanding of it.

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The earth not being flat. Proved. Went around the earth. You can also go around the earth, if you happen to fall down at the edge then you can prove that it is flat.
That doesn't prove anything at all. I've been to the top of the Eiffel Tower and didn't fall off. Does that prove I can't fall off? The fact that you didn't see the edge doesn't prove there isn't an edge. How do you know you really went around the globe rather than just travelling in a circle? Did you actually pilot the plane yourself and personally construct the instruments on which you relied? You believed maps? You believed authority? You believed what your teachers at school told you? It all boils down to belief and trust. You believed and now you are in denial over that. You are equating your beliefs to absolute truth and equating conflicting beliefs to BS, while denying the rights of those who believe that BS to think the same of you. You're like the guy standing on one side of the river who fails to see that to the other guys standing on the other bank, you are on the other bank.
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  #155  
Old 19.07.2011, 15:52
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

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Tell me, when you choose to believe in a different reality, do the laws of physics no longer apply?
Believing something does not make it true.
The truth exists outside and beyond of whether people know it or believe it.
But it is possible to construct a system of beliefs that is not identical to the truth yet sufficiently self-contained and free of obvious contradiction as to be credible.

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Because one we can test and can be shown to be true. The other can't be tested, because it's just the magic man in your head.

Honestly, if you can't grasp that, you really don't live in a reality, you live in an imagination.
Exactly. That's what I'm trying to tell you.

And to the religious fanatic, the God stuff is true because it is shown to be true, and the science stuff is suspicious because he doesn't understand it or he rejects elements of the underlying logic on which it relies. So things are true because you want them to be true? Is that sufficient as a proof.

Quite possibly everybody is pissing in the wind. But everybody seems to think that they understand things and that everybody else apart from them is pissing in the wind. If you're unable to grasp the symmetry of that you're unable to abstract sufficiently from your own viewpoint.

Ah no you say, that is not so, BECAUSE I AM RIGHT. And so the conversation continues to go in a circle.
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Old 19.07.2011, 15:57
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

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Uhmm, raised this point earlier, but the new atheism was a reaction to increasing pressure to teach ID and creationism as science in schools. The battle still rages on that front in the US, to a lesser extent the UK. I belive this is what you are referring to when you say they should be taking on the causes.
No, not at all, Intelligent design and the Christian fundamentalists are such a small group of individuals in the world it is ridiculous devoting such time and expense to debunking their ideas, like the flat earthers or the conspiracy theorists, the population of the world know these guys are nuts.

The causes are global poverty, hunger, wars, no education, the army marches by the masses not the vanguard minority, tackling the extremists is pointless one must educate and feed the world relieve the social toil of arduous living.

For example take the recent troubles in Belfast on the 11th and 12th of July, religious hatred and violence was the outcome, poverty, joblessness low pay and low satisfaction was the fuel of that fire.
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  #157  
Old 19.07.2011, 16:05
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

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For example take the recent troubles in Belfast on the 11th and 12th of July, religious hatred and violence was the outcome, poverty, joblessness low pay and low satisfaction was the fuel of that fire.
And William of Orange
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  #158  
Old 19.07.2011, 16:07
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

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That doesn't prove anything at all. I've been to the top of the Eiffel Tower and didn't fall off. Does that prove I can't fall off? The fact that you didn't see the edge doesn't prove there isn't an edge. How do you know you really went around the globe rather than just travelling in a circle? Did you actually pilot the plane yourself and personally construct the instruments on which you relied? You believed maps? You believed authority? You believed what your teachers at school told you? It all boils down to belief and trust. You believed and now you are in denial over that. You are equating your beliefs to absolute truth and equating conflicting beliefs to BS, while denying the rights of those who believe that BS to think the same of you. You're like the guy standing on one side of the river who fails to see that to the other guys standing on the other bank, you are on the other bank.
Where are you going with this? I'm intrigued. You've basically only shown that whatever you believe has as much worth as the most stupid and ignorant ideas because that is the only way you can level the playing field.

Yes we have certain ammount of trust among people, we can't know anything 100%, but we can know things beyond reasonable doubt.

We can see that people, no matter how much they believe in something impossible, they cannot make it happen. It's not just that people believe in BS, it's that it can be shown, with tools available to all, that what they believe isn't true. You can come in and talk about different realities, but you'll never actually get out of this one, the one we all live in, that has the same laws of physics for everyone, where everyone is affected by time and age, where everyone needs water and food to survive, and tools to build and stuff to work out.
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Old 19.07.2011, 16:13
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

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No, not at all, Intelligent design and the Christian fundamentalists are such a small group of individuals in the world it is ridiculous devoting such time and expense to debunking their ideas, like the flat earthers or the conspiracy theorists, the population of the world know these guys are nuts.
I think you'd be suprised at how many people belive these fringe ideas, certainly many, many times more numerous than flat earthers or conspriacy theorists.
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Old 19.07.2011, 16:15
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Re: Any Pastafarians here?

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And William of Orange
These people aren't driving BMWs, neither did king Billy.
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